Page 20 | Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

Sausagenbacon · 2023-01-28T11:15:05+00:00

and why does Justin Welby bother with her? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her. I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it. I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 20:20

@JassyRadlett but underhand all the same. Not actually genuinely attempting to win anyone over but to using her own privilege to force her own agenda. It shows as much disregard for other people as she is accusing others of.

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 20:22

@AnorLondo, it's not that celebrities shouldn't be allowed to campaign it's the way Sandi Toksvig has gone about this that makes me feel uncomfortable.

JassyRadlett · 08/02/2023 20:30

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 20:20

@JassyRadlett but underhand all the same. Not actually genuinely attempting to win anyone over but to using her own privilege to force her own agenda. It shows as much disregard for other people as she is accusing others of.

I don't know. She gave him a chance. She knew what the likely outcome would be, but she gave him a chance all the same.

His response is not her fault, and it draws attention to an issue that she wants attention drawn to. She hasn't tricked him into anything or leaked anything he sent her privately.

She's a person who's been involved in a political movement, and used her fame to further the goals of that movement.

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 20:37

@JassyRadlett and unfortunately for him, he gave over the time to talk to her. She just used his response to further her own agenda which she has been able to push and publicise through capitalising on her celebrity. Unfortunately, if successful, this could serve to push the church to being more insular and less inclusive of those considered to be outsiders.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 08/02/2023 20:48

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 19:36

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, understandably. But it just doesn't feel right that we go straight from one set of privileged people appointing themselves as an authority over the governing of this country to another equally privileged set doing exactly the same. It's hardly democratic is it?

I think it's a bit different. Using a public platform to express a view is not the same as having an automatic seat in the House of Lords.

I have no objections in the slightest to Bishops, other clergy or indeed other faith leaders speaking out on moral issues that are important to them. I believe that they have a valid role in public life, alongside other voices. My issue is with giving them an automatic right to sit in the House of Lords. I don't feel the need to silence them entirely!

AnorLondo · 08/02/2023 20:48

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 20:22

@AnorLondo, it's not that celebrities shouldn't be allowed to campaign it's the way Sandi Toksvig has gone about this that makes me feel uncomfortable.

By writing an open letter, accepting an invitation to meet and starting a public petition?

pointythings · 08/02/2023 21:01

Unfortunately, if successful, this could serve to push the church to being more insular and less inclusive of those considered to be outsiders.

If you're talking about the potential for schism, with the Anglican church in the West going one way and the Anglica Church in Africa going another - bring it on. Let them rot in the 15th century. I just feel for anyone who is queer in that part of the world. We've been treading softly softly with these dinosaurs for decades, it has to stop some time. They do not deserve my tolerance or respect.

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 21:02

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

"I think it's a bit different. Using a public platform to express a view is not the same as having an automatic seat in the House of Lords."

It is different. However it's just the way lifetime Peers are elected disturbs me equally as much as they way the unelected seats operate. Using celebrity to push one's own political agenda is reminiscent of the privilege of the lifetime Peers. The unelected inherited seats are equally as disturbing as the unelected church seats which Sandi has made no reference to yet her complaint about the automatic church seats are because they are not representative of the general population.

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 21:05

If you're talking about the potential for schism, with the Anglican church in the West going one way and the Anglica Church in Africa going another - bring it on. Let them rot in the 15th century. I just feel for anyone who is queer in that part of the world. We've been treading softly softly with these dinosaurs for decades, it has to stop some time. They do not deserve my tolerance or respect.

What about all the ordinary people it affects in Africa?

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 21:06

Sorry last post @pointythings?

pointythings · 08/02/2023 21:09

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 21:05

If you're talking about the potential for schism, with the Anglican church in the West going one way and the Anglica Church in Africa going another - bring it on. Let them rot in the 15th century. I just feel for anyone who is queer in that part of the world. We've been treading softly softly with these dinosaurs for decades, it has to stop some time. They do not deserve my tolerance or respect.

What about all the ordinary people it affects in Africa?

People in African nations have other faiths they can turn to, including the pre-colonial ones which in general did not have such issues with homophobia. People forget that Anglicanism in former colonies has been heavily coloured by colonial legislation, which has been retained for far too long in far too many countries.

The only way religions will change is if they see the number of followers they have fall, and that is about cultural change, which takes time. Meanwhile the Anglican Church is stretching itself to breaking point to maintain itself as a single entity in a way that is not possible.

And of course we (especially in the UK) should get better at accepting people who flee those countries because of homophobic laws.

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 21:12

"And of course we (especially in the UK) should get better at accepting people who flee those countries because of homophobic laws."

@pointythings
Right. But our recent record concerning that doesn't look very promising does it? Perhaps reforming the House of Lords might help...

pointythings · 08/02/2023 21:21

Agreed, there needs to be massive investment and overhaul to reach a fair, fast and functioning asylum system. Allowing asylum seekers to work would be a brilliant start.

pikiwop54 · 08/02/2023 22:05

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 21:05

If you're talking about the potential for schism, with the Anglican church in the West going one way and the Anglica Church in Africa going another - bring it on. Let them rot in the 15th century. I just feel for anyone who is queer in that part of the world. We've been treading softly softly with these dinosaurs for decades, it has to stop some time. They do not deserve my tolerance or respect.

What about all the ordinary people it affects in Africa?

Gay people in Africa are ordinary people.

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 22:08

Exactly the point I was making @pikiwop54!

JassyRadlett · 08/02/2023 22:11

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 21:12

"And of course we (especially in the UK) should get better at accepting people who flee those countries because of homophobic laws."

@pointythings
Right. But our recent record concerning that doesn't look very promising does it? Perhaps reforming the House of Lords might help...

TBH the Lords is the least of our problems on refugees and human rights. The only way Lords reform could make any difference is if it came with a sweeping review of powers as well as membership.

She just used his response to further her own agenda which she has been able to push and publicise through capitalising on her celebrity.

Is her celebrity supposed to disqualify her from getting involved in politics? Should she not have been allowed to help found a political party?

Who is allowed to pursue a political agenda in your book?

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 22:28

"Is her celebrity supposed to disqualify her from getting involved in politics? Should she not have been allowed to help found a political party?

Who is allowed to pursue a political agenda in your book?"

@JassyRadlett as I explained in a previous post it is the way she has gone about this that makes me uncomfortable. Using her own privilege to complain primarily about the privileges of a different group is somewhat hypocritical.

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 22:30

"TBH the Lords is the least of our problems on refugees and human rights. The only way Lords reform could make any difference is if it came with a sweeping review of powers as well as membership. "

@JassyRadlett, indeed.

JassyRadlett · 08/02/2023 22:37

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 22:28

"Is her celebrity supposed to disqualify her from getting involved in politics? Should she not have been allowed to help found a political party?

Who is allowed to pursue a political agenda in your book?"

@JassyRadlett as I explained in a previous post it is the way she has gone about this that makes me uncomfortable. Using her own privilege to complain primarily about the privileges of a different group is somewhat hypocritical.

So... no celebrity is able to campaign against entrenched privilege or interests?

echoesacrosstheether · 08/02/2023 22:49

"So... no celebrity is able to campaign against entrenched privilege or interests?"

@JassyRadlett
I think if they do then they should need to have the utmost honesty and integrity to ensure it is purely the issues at stake that are fought for. Rather than using celebrity to engage in very public conversations in the guise of achieving a quite different purpose. Sandi isn't really concerned over changing what happens inside church walls she just wants to remove the church's privilege in terms of the House of Lords. The same kind of privilege which would group her with the kind of people who are voted in as lifetime Peers.

AnorLondo · 08/02/2023 22:53

Sandi isn't really concerned over changing what happens inside church walls she just wants to remove the church's privilege in terms of the House of Lords.

How do you know? Have you asked her?

JassyRadlett · 08/02/2023 23:19

Sandi isn't really concerned over changing what happens inside church walls she just wants to remove the church's privilege in terms of the House of Lords. The same kind of privilege which would group her with the kind of people who are voted in as lifetime Peers.

First, how do you know she wouldn't quite like both?

Second, are you seriously equating having a media profile as having the same political power and privilege as having a seat reserved for you in the legislature? Or even being appointed (not voted) as life peers?

echoesacrosstheether · 09/02/2023 07:11

"First, how do you know she wouldn't quite like both?

Second, are you seriously equating having a media profile as having the same political power and privilege as having a seat reserved for you in the legislature? Or even being appointed (not voted) as life peers?"

@JassyRadlett, sorry, it's just by singling out the church over the other members of The House of Lords for the reason they don't represent the general population seems deeply ironic when none of the House of Lords do.

Her privileged upbringing is actually quite similar to that of many lifetime peers.

But then, I shouldn't really hold her into higher account than the rest of them, so I am sorry for that. I've explained the reasons it doesn't feel right to me but then lots of things about the way this country is run don't.

AnorLondo · 09/02/2023 08:36

echoesacrosstheether · 09/02/2023 07:11

"First, how do you know she wouldn't quite like both?

Second, are you seriously equating having a media profile as having the same political power and privilege as having a seat reserved for you in the legislature? Or even being appointed (not voted) as life peers?"

@JassyRadlett, sorry, it's just by singling out the church over the other members of The House of Lords for the reason they don't represent the general population seems deeply ironic when none of the House of Lords do.

Her privileged upbringing is actually quite similar to that of many lifetime peers.

But then, I shouldn't really hold her into higher account than the rest of them, so I am sorry for that. I've explained the reasons it doesn't feel right to me but then lots of things about the way this country is run don't.

it's not ironic, it has already been explained why it can be more effective to focus on one particular aspect.

Why are you so determined to make this into something sinister?

echoesacrosstheether · 09/02/2023 08:45

"it's not ironic, it has already been explained why it can be more effective to focus on one particular aspect.

Why are you so determined to make this into something sinister?"

@AnorLondo, it simply unsettled me. The explanations didn't reassure me. No determination or effort required for that.