Abortion

[Spookypig]

Is anyone here British and against abortion for religious reasons? I’m just asking out of interest if I’m honest - I live abroad and many people are against abortion because of their religion, but I never encountered anyone with this view in the UK (although the majority of my friends at home are atheists). It seems like most countries have a more even divide re: abortion, but in the UK I’ve only ever met people who are very pro abortion (without limits).

"Well, quite. That’s the problem, isn’t it?"

Well no, I don't see it as a problem. A woman wants to have an abortion, she has an abortion. What does it matter why?

@arctica because she is only allowed an abortion if she suffers and is sad about it.

You do realise that a lot of these women are in abusive relationships, denied access to contraception, coerced in to getting pregnant only for their 'partner' to demand an abortion weeks later? Sex workers who are less likely to be consistent with short acting contraceptives and who have limited access to long term contraceptives? Sexually abused and sexually exploited teenagers? Many of them in care.

These are not well adjusted, mentally healthy, stable adults who happened to find abortion more convenient than getting a coil.

Your examples are very accurate. Some people are in very vulnerable positions.

@Badnewsoracle. I was a teenager who was coerced into sex and pregnancy, told to keep it, then threatened if I didn't 'get rid of that shot', then denied an abortion by family. I think it's difficult to imagine these things if you've never experienced that sort of thing. So I don't blame people for not realising. Sometimes people just don't get it unless they've been there.

I don't think most people mean any harm by saying they want to keep abortions down. We generally don't want more abortions. But it depends how it's phrased.

Well, because it’s like I’ve said. I don’t view abortion (past a certain point - much earlier than the cut off point now) as ‘just another medical procedure’. I view it as the taking of a life from a human child. And I understand and accept that there are situations, like that of your friend, where to bring a child into the world would cause more suffering. But I also don’t quite believe that abortion should be as casual as it is now and viewed as ‘just another medical procedure’. I DO think it should be made more difficult or at least have stricter rules around it purely so that it is not treated as just another form of contraception. And you may say that this is uncommon but I know several people - friends, in fact, who do view it as a form of contraception. Not much more of a big deal than taking the morning after pill. I wonder what percentage of abortions are actually caused by one of these real, true crises like your friends situation or a rape, and what percentage are just because the person didn’t use contraception/thinks it’s inconvenient to have a baby at this time so will try again later/etc.

Im not saying I want women to suffer. Of course not. I am a woman. But I am saying I don’t think women are incapable of taking more responsibility for their body and their actions and their choices. It’s a little insulting the way that some people discuss women like they’re all constantly victims of something. A lot of women are perfectly capable of being like ‘better use some contraception as I don’t want a baby’ and yes, double up if they REALLY don’t want a baby. The number of times contraception actually fails is really not that high.

I liked the comparison another person made to smacking a child. And I understand there are a number of different situations in which a parent might smack. Even a good parent might be driven to smack sometimes - It might be the only form of discipline that works, the parent might be desperate at at their wits end due to their behaviour and smacking might be the only solution. Sure. I get that.

I still think it’s wrong to smack a helpless child. I would still argue that there should be rules in place about not smacking children. I still think that it shouldn’t be viewed casually or as normal to smack a child.

It’s none of my business what a parent does with their children. But as humans we tend to stand up for those who we feel can’t stand up for themselves. That is why we put rules in place to defend those people.

And that’s how I feel about abortions after a certain point, when the baby is no longer just a clump of cells but is now a baby.

Its nothing about wanting anyone to suffer, just like how someone who thinks smacking isn’t right doesn’t want those parents to suffer by removing their form of discipline. It’s about standing up for someone innocent who can’t stand up for themselves.

Again, I don’t think abortion should be illegal. But I really don’t think we should encourage each other to view it as any old medical procedure, so that it continues to be taken so lightly.

I don't think it is taken lightly, generally. And for those who are very sure about the decision and feel little or no sadness, well, those are the people who are the most convinced that they don't want a baby.

The vast majority of terminations are very early. An embryo at that stage is not a baby. I understand why people have more reservations about later terminations, but those are usually done for medical reasons or severe social reasons.

Yes, contraception use isn't perfect. That's human nature. People make mistakes. I think that if you really want to decrease terminations, you should be campaigning for more funding of GPs and sexual health clinics (so good quality contraceptive care is accessible) and better DV / sexual assault prevention.

So what rules would you have brought on? Would women be questioned on what contraception they used?

Maybe it's because we are so aware of how common early miscarriages and failed implantations are that some of us find it hard to be sentimental about early embryos. I was taught growing up that life started at conception but I think that belief must have worked a lot better when we were less aware of early pregnancy and its failure rate.

@Spookypig so basically you want women to feel guilty about their decisions. And you compare early stage abortions to actually hitting a living child. That's disgusting.

So you have some friends who are casual about contraception. Great, have some anecdata from me: I have several friends who fell pregnant despite doubling up on contraception. (They kept the babies). So basically you are saying that those are 'deserving' abortions (if wanted) and the others aren't? What do you want here, to have women interrogated as to why they want an abortion and if they aren't 'deserving' they should be forced to carry to term? Or do you just want to subject them to a bit of interrogation and humiliation before they are 'allowed' to have their abortion?

None of that will achieve anything. If you want to reduce abortion rates, look at thoe countries which have the lowest rates and replicate what they are doing. (hint: it won't happen because the UK is economically neoliberal and actual investment in people and services is not in line with that ideology).

Well - yes. I suppose I do think that some situations justify an abortion whereas others don’t. That’s what I’ve been saying all along. For example, I have lost track of how many posts I have seen on Mumsnet where the poster is considering an abortion because it’s not quite the perfect time to have a baby, although they have a partner who they wish to have a child with in the future. They’re wanting to get further in their career or buy and decorate a house first, for example. So they’re wanting to abort and then try again later as it’s not quite perfect timing now. I think that’s very immoral.

On the other hand, a would understand a woman needing to abort due to health issues.

So yes, I do think some abortions can be justified whereas others can’t so much.

Yes, you’re right. I had a MC around 7 weeks and it didn’t really cause a huge impact if I’m honest. After around 12 weeks I think I’d have been devastated as that’s the point I really started to see the baby as a baby. And I think it’s because of exactly what you said - we are always told that the MC rate before this point is high.

I think that if you really want to decrease terminations, you should be campaigning for more funding of GPs and sexual health clinics (so good quality contraceptive care is accessible) and better DV / sexual assault prevention.

Yes, I agree with this too.

But it's the same procedure, regardless of the reason for having it. And you still haven't explained how you would enforce deserving vs undeserving abortions.

But it's the same procedure, regardless of the reason for having it. And you still haven't explained how you would enforce deserving vs undeserving abortions.

Very much this. It sounds like you want women to be shamed. We all would like there to be fewer abortions (whilst at the same time not having an increase in unwanted children!) but shaming women and moralising at them is not the way to achieve that. The fact that you feel uncomfortable about the reasons some women haave for their abortions is neither here nor there - it's their choice and nothing to do with you.

I actually think it’s an issue that is relevant to others because like I said before, there isn’t only 1 person involved - the woman - as much as it has become popular to suggest. Which goes back to my ‘smacking a child’ comment earlier. Sort of going round in circles, it seems! So I won’t type it all out again.

Im not saying I am planning on campaigning for this or making the rules myself? I am not a politician and no longer work in healthcare so it’s not really my job to do so. I would, though, be open to hearing out any people who do have suggestions about how to limit and reduce abortion rates.

Actually I started this thread because I was hoping to discuss with other British religious people their own opinions about abortion. I am British but not living in the UK at the moment and had noticed that my religious friends abroad are fairly vocal about being pro-life for religious reasons (it’s actually rather assumed that all religious people here are pro-life rather than a subjective decision). I had noticed that my British friends hadn’t really expressed any opinion and was wondering if this was a different view or just nervousness to speak out due to it being very controversial, especially since America’s new rules. Anyway, my goal was to ask religious people their views based on their faith and how they interpret this in their real life.

Having a debate about abortion and personally coming up with a set of rules myself was never really my goal, and still isn’t.

I actually think it’s an issue that is relevant to others because like I said before, there isn’t only 1 person involved - the woman - as much as it has become popular to suggest.

Well, under UK law there actually is only one person involved. The moment you start granting foetuses personhood you're opening a whole can of worms that usually ends up with women in jail. This is already happening in countries around the world and is absolutely not a desirable outcome.

I also think religion is a bit of a red herring when it comes to abortion. Claiming 'I'm religious so I am opposed to abortion' basically means abrogating all responsibility to consider the implications of opposing/banning abortion on real people with real life. Sheltering behind faith means you don't have to think about the practicalities, which is a cop-out. I also think that it is unacceptable to impose the tenets of your religion on people who may not share that religion, which leads us back to your freedom not to have an abortion yourself, but your absolute lack of any right to impose that on others.

I get the impression that religious people in the states are more able to surround themselves with religious people than religious people in the UK. I don't know if that gives people the confidence to be openly pro-life in a way that's socially difficult in Britain perhaps.

@WhatNoRaisins I think you're right. The UK is much more secular (thank goodness!). In the States, 'what church do you go to' is a common conversation opener and in a lot of areas people still look askance if you mention being atheist. I find that scary.

I'm resorting to stereotypes here but with my friend that I mentioned earlier, if she'd been part of a right wing mega church in the US she could have been surrounded by very different people. I'm thinking the sort that would have told her that the troubled family deserved all that happened to them for not being responsible enough or that it was their fault that they couldn't handle a big family because they weren't working hard enough to pull themselves out of poverty and poor mental health.

Sorry if I offend anyone but I've had enough similar discussions with US Christians to know this type exists. A lot of British Christians I know tend to be quite left wing on the other hand.

I actually think it’s an issue that is relevant to others because like I said before, there isn’t only 1 person involved - the woman - as much as it has become popular to suggest.

That still doesn't explain why the motivation matters. If you think abortion is killing another human being, why does it matter whether it's for health reasons or financial or because they just don't want a child?

I think the answer to this is fairly obvious and the reason for the legislation that surrounds abortion. If giving birth to the baby is going to cause harm in itself then you have to weigh up the 2 harms and decide the lesser of the 2 harms. So... if the pregnancy threatens the woman with severe physical or emotional harm there is an argument that that should be weighed up and an abortion may be preferable. However, I think what op is trying to say and I would agree, there are thousands of abortions that do not meet this criteria but are for reasons of convenience. This is not a good enough reason to end a life.
The terminology used for unborn babies is deliberately dehumanising which makes it easier for woman to make a decision to end that life. Must Christians I know would offer support to anyone who had had an abortion and also try and support someone having a baby in difficult circumstances. The decisions about cut off points etc are made based on current medical advice and advocates from both sides of the lobby should be absolutely free to petition the powers that be in either direction, for any reason up until actual birth or restricted after 8, 12,20,24 weeks. It is a moral issue and that is why there are laws around it and it is not just a free for all. That is why the' you do you and I' ll do me' argument does not hold sway as there is a life being taken and that life needs some protection.

It's hard to draw a line between mental health and convenience or lifestyle reasons as I've also seen it called. Obviously your mental health is impacted at least partly by your lifestyle.

I think we need to be very careful about accepting those 'convenience' reasons at face value. I think very few women really take the decision to end a pregnancy lightly, and assuming that they do is just another way of not trusting women to make sound decisions.