Abortion

[Spookypig]

Is anyone here British and against abortion for religious reasons? I’m just asking out of interest if I’m honest - I live abroad and many people are against abortion because of their religion, but I never encountered anyone with this view in the UK (although the majority of my friends at home are atheists). It seems like most countries have a more even divide re: abortion, but in the UK I’ve only ever met people who are very pro abortion (without limits).

I think that there’s got to be some sort of middle ground, where both the mother and unborn baby are considered - like by making abortion available but not after the point when the ‘clump of cells’ can not be called that any more as it is now a baby that could survive outside of the womb.

We already have that middle ground - it's the 24 week limit. It's only breached if there are serious medical issues. The number of abortions past this limit each year is tiny.

I think the problem is there isn't a practical middle ground that makes anyone happy here. It's why I've never really under that argument that the father should get to have "some say". There isn't a compromise, putting it bluntly either the woman has an abortion and the foetus "loses" or the woman is made to carry to term and she "loses".

@WhatNoRaisins in that context no, there is no middle ground. Nor should there be. The only person who should have any say is the one who is actually pregnant, i.e. the woman. It really is that simple. The moment you change that and allow men a say, or give foetuses personhood, you're making the woman into an incubator.

I don't think a lot of people from the pro life position like to acknowledge that the woman is the loser in that scenario though. I think some have this position where they see pregnancy as an inevitable good and that it's always in the woman's best interests too to not have the abortion.

I think what confuses me is that anyone with an ounce of life experience knows that there are children in awful situations and we don't know how to really help them. I've known a teenage pro lifer that changed her mind after actually spending time around dysfunctional families with barely coping parents through volunteering.

I think a lot of people lack empathy and tend to look at life through a lens of their own experience. I have to say I respect your teenage pro-lifer, because most in that situation would close their eyes and double down on their position, probably blaming the family who are not coping for their own situation.

I have two very much wanted and loved DC, but I can't help but think that anyone who thinks pregnancy is always great and wonderful has been exceptionally lucky - I had devastating nausea with both, one very difficult delivery with a PPH, joint pain and horrific heartburn. It isn't a picnic and pretending that it's always roses is just hideous. Then there's the reality of raising children - it doesn't surprise me that many of the forced birther brigade are men. They're clueless.

But presumably the family that are in that terrible family situation had access to termination clinics And and chose not to?

Which is exactly the point that @WhatNoRaisins is making - that seeing the consequences of not having abortion available are devastating. If you ban abortion, there will be many, many more families in terrible situations. The forced birthers don't like to think about that.

One thing that is rarely acknowledged on these threads, though, is that people might be more careful with contraception if there are stricter abortion rules.

I know people say ‘contraception can fail’ but does it really happen that often? From what I’ve read it’s fairly rare - it’s certainly never happened to any of my friends who I have discussed these things with. And what are the chances that a condom and/or the pill AND the morning after pill are going to fail? It’s not like there’s just two choices - have sex and risk pregnancy or don’t have sex at all? There are a lot of forms of ensuring that pregnancies don’t happen.

And abortion has, in my opinion, become considered as just another form of contraception - that’s what I am worried by and what strikes me as immoral. I think it’s being encouraged to be taken lightly - everyone emphasises how it’s JUST another medical procedure when actually no, it’s not. It’s the taking of a life which yes, is sometimes a clump of cells but is, at other times, a formed baby that could survive outside of the womb. And that’s why I feel so conflicted about it. I didn’t feel this way until I had my own baby and saw her on the scan at 20 weeks and she was so … well, she was a real baby! It made me feel sick to think that I could have aborted her at that stage. So of course I am influenced by my own experiences, but the aren’t we all. I felt that at that stage this wasn’t my decision anymore - she was a person by then, and aborting her would have been killing a real person. So for me it very much depends on the stage of the pregnancy as to whether the woman is the only person who matters in this situation.

"It’s not like there’s just two choices - have sex and risk pregnancy or don’t have sex at all? There are a lot of forms of ensuring that pregnancies don’t happen."

All of which can fail.

Why is having abortion after contraception fails okay but having an abortion after not using contraception immoral?

I don’t think abortions are moral if contraception fails. I said that I don’t think contraception really DOES fail that often.

So if contraception fails a woman should have to just have the baby anyway? How does that scan with "It’s not like there’s just two choices - have sex and risk pregnancy or don’t have sex at all?"

I think the argument about not wanting there to be lots of unwanted children around is a good argument for abortion. Many pregnant woman from highly dysfunctional backgrounds will continue with their pregnancies and some will have children removed.
A large proportion of abortions are woman for whom the timing is not ideal. I had 3 such pregnancies myself, 2 of which ended in miscarriage and the other which resulted in me having 3 kids under the age of 3.5. Life was a blue for a couple of years and then started to improve.
I know a good few friends who had children in what felt like less than ideal situations and timings, who had they not had a moral objection to abortion, probably would have had one. They have all been fine longer term .
There are numerous threads on MN where women take first pill and change their minds.
There is a rhetoric that tries to reduce that baby to nothing until born. This is just not true.
I was discussing with my 18 year old son how when he is sexually active, he needs to be aware that it could result in a baby that he will need to support for rest of his life. He was very dismissive and said the girl could just get an abortion. I was furious with him but it is presented as such an easy solution and massively minimised. I also see this regularly on MN. Clump of cells, blob of jelly, like having a tooth out.
I realize that sometimes an abortion might be the lesser of 2 evils but it is still something that we should be all fighting to reduce the numbers of at all opportunities, and the current strategy of minimising the procedure is not working.

The only person I know in the UK that is pro life is a woman that has never had a relationship, never had sex, is overly involved with her parents and lives a sheltered life with her cats. It’s really annoying that she sits in judgement of other women when she doesn’t really live in the real world.

I meant to say she is religious, she’s Catholic.

"I realize that sometimes an abortion might be the lesser of 2 evils but it is still something that we should be all fighting to reduce the numbers of at all opportunities"

You can, I bloody well won't.

The thing is, In 2021 43% of women undergoing abortions had had one or more previous abortions.
This just demonstrates how normalised abortion is. I really feel that having an abortion is a huge descision and One sometimes made when there are other options available that would not result in misery (one of the arguments for abortion).

One of my friends had an abortion years ago and was absolutely fine until she had her first child. I know she sought therapy at the time but she said she wished she had of known back then how she would have felt after.

Abortion is a huge deal, with it being so normalised it has taken away the enormity of the situation. It is effectively ending a potential life (unless unviable), not a hypothetical one, but an actual forming life.

for me to fully support abortion without any hang ups and just focus on the best interest s of the mother, I’d have to completely disregard the potential person who is vulnerable and in the hands of another- I am unable to do that since having my own children.

I would absolutely NEVER impose my opinions on anybody that came to me for support of seeking an abortion however. These are my opinions and I am not judge and jury, what I feel is not what others should or have to feel.

@Spookypig I know three people in my circle of friends who ended up with a pregnancy despite doubling up on contraception - so we both have our bits of anecdata. They chose to have the babies, btw.

Secondly the whole have sex or not situation is not as simple as you make it sound. A lot of abortions happen in long term relationships where there may already be children. Sex is an integral part of a relationship. The problems come when the couple no longer want children and the woman no longer wants to use hormonal contraceptives - but the man will not use condoms and refuses a vasectomy. And in that scenario, not having sex is extremely difficult because it's considered 'withholding sex'. And that's only one possible scenario.

The problem with the forced birthers is that they so love to see the world in black and white when in reality it is a complex mass of shades of grey.

Lastly, your personal experience of seeing your unborn baby as a person does not mean every woman in that situation must feel the same way and act the same way. The whole point about being pro choice is that we don't go around telling people they must have abortions.

@User15432 I respect your position completely, because you do not seek to impose it on others.

However, if you look at it on a population level, the number of women who regret their abortions is very low. There are reasons why some women have more than one abortion - for starters, some women are much more fertile than others.

"Abortion is a huge deal"

Not for everyone.

Well, quite. That’s the problem, isn’t it? We are trying to convince ourselves it’s not what it actually is.

Recently there was a post on MN where a mum was conflicted as she didn’t want an abortion and her partner wanted her to have one. She spoke of her pain about the idea of ‘killing their child’ and was flamed for using emotive language to discuss the topic, with many posters telling her it was inappropriate and that it’s ‘just another medical procedure’.

Maybe if we stopped this and spoke about it in more frank terms then the abortion rate would be lower and/or people would be less likely to rely on the concept of an abortion and be more cautious with contraception?

Again, I’m not anti-abortion but I do feel that the number of abortions happening and the way it’s being encouraged to be perceived in society is not right. I’m not saying people shouldn’t have abortions in genuine emergencies. But i’m saying that abortion shouldn’t be normalised and viewed as a standard medical procedure to the point that people who AREN’T having a genuine emergency still fall back on abortion.

As for me seeing the baby at 20 weeks - of course not all people will the same way. My point here was that however you feel, at this stage the baby is very much not just a clump of cells.

I'm a Christian.

I believe that life begins at conception.

I think that abortion should be available when necessary. I think it makes me sad when it happens- but it needs to be legal & needs safe.
. If I got pregnant now (I am sexually active and use contraception) I would probably choose to have an abortion. And I would feel guilty and find it very hard. But I am glad I live in a country wher it is possible and safe.

I find it difficult when people have late term abortions (not for abnormalities as I think that is heartbreaking) but just becuase they don't want the baby. But I also know this is very rare.

And I know that none of what I have written is logical.
I believe women should have choice- but with limits.

Abortion at 20 weeks makes up a tiny proportion of abortions, and is usually done for very serious medical reasons. Please don't imagine that people do that lightly.

I have a friend who had an abortion at 26 weeks. This was a much wanted baby, but there were known genetic issues in the family, so she got tested for it. NHS delays took the test past the 24 week limit. The test turned out positive, so she had to terminate - this baby had a condition incompatible with life, meaning that the moment it was born, it would start dying and would experience pain and suffering.

Abortion rights are the hill I would die on because of her. If you look at the data on post 20 week abortions, they are 1) very very few and 2) done for serious medical reasons, not frivolous 'I've changed my mind' ones. Maternal mental health can be and should be a factor that is taken seriously here.

Going on and on about how abortion isn't just healthcare achieves nothing but guilt tripping women.

In your friend’s case, though, abortion is moral though isn’t it? I mean, very few people could argue that it wasn’t. Even people who are against abortion wouldn’t be able to make a good case against this type of situation - If it’s the choice between an abortion and a living baby suffering and dying and the effect that would have on the family. I think that very few people would judge or criticise anyone for getting an abortion in that circumstance. It seems that most people who have concerns about abortion being taken lightly are not referring to situations like your friends which is obviously heartbreaking. I can’t even imagine going through that, how awful for her 😞

The thing about people saying that abortion is taken lightly is that I'm not sure what they want to achieve. Do they want to make getting an abortion harder? If so, what good would that do? Do they want to force women to get counselling? Mad Nad Dorries proposed that idea once and I see it as an enforced guilt trip which again would achieve nothing. Or do they just want to wail and wring their hands and feel superior? Ultimately if you make abortion harder to get, you end up with women who have children they do not want. How does that benefit the children in question? It always strikes me that the forced birthers can't be bothered to think through the practicalities - they just want to punish women.