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Philosophy/religion

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Christianity basics

152 replies

Hotandbothereds · 19/09/2022 22:28

I’m not a practicing Christian but I went to C of E primary school, regularly attended Sunday school with my grandparents as a child, so I feel like I know a lot of the Bible and always thought I had a good grasp of the religion.

But I feel like I’ve missed a huge piece of learning somewhere, can anyone explain?

I understand that in the Christian faith Jesus died to save our sins, but how? How is that connection made? How did his death make that happen?

And if he saved our sins then, do people who believe that consider themselves to be without sin?

I’m sorry if this sounds ridiculous, I genuinely feel like I somehow missed a huge important piece of learning here.

OP posts:
Cillery · 25/09/2022 14:55

Vincitveritas · 25/09/2022 10:58

In God's eyes I hope that is the case, but you can't deny there's tension between Christians here on earth. It obviously only applies to a small minority, but my faith has been dismissed before on the bases that I'm not Catholic. There's more to it but I don't want to share the details because they're quite identifying. I found it very hurtful because, while I don't share their views on a lot of aspects, I still consider them brothers & sisters in Christ.

Of course there are differences - as in a family. That doesn’t make them any less a family.

SilverLiningPlaybook · 25/09/2022 16:54

Vincitveritas · 25/09/2022 11:19

@SilverLiningPlaybook Yes, I believe there will be a literal resurrection. This is one of the Bible passages about it
(1 Corinthians 15:35-57):

'But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.'

I take that to mean the physical body dies, but the spiritual body is eternal. Doesn’t mean we will all be resurrected in physical form.

Naijagal · 25/09/2022 17:40

@Hotandbothereds

Lots of answers have been given, some true, some confused, some outright untruths so OP ( or anyone seeking ) the best way way to discern rightly what the Christian belief is to read the Bible yourself and ask God to help you understand it. Read Genesis 1-3 and then read The gospel of John to start.

To answer you directly, here’s my go.

  1. “I understand that in the Christian faith Jesus died to save our sins, but how? How is that connection made? How did his death make that happen?”

Jesus died to save humanity from the ultimate consequence of sin which is eternal death not to ‘save our sins’
this sin occurred in Genesis chapter 1-3 and since then all of humanity has faced this doomed fate.
But God already knew what would happen and immediately initiated His rescue plan which was unlike anything any one would expect, God Himself (His Word) coming as human flesh (Jesus) to save humans.
Jesus death makes it happen in that, an innocent life without this doomed fate says take my life instead of these people!

How can one persons life save all of humanity? In the same way one persons sin doomed all humanity or perhaps how one man’s financial decision can plunge his entire family into perpetual poverty while one other persons decision can lift that family up from poverty.

  1. “And if he saved our sins then, do people who believe that consider themselves to be without sin?”

Jesus saves people not sins. Those that trust and accept that Jesus has died in their place are saved from the ultimate consequence of sin which is eternal death and now have eternal life.

They are also freed from the power of sin which causes people to keep sinning whether they like it or not
So, people who trust in Jesus now have the ability to say no to sin, they are not without sin but they know they can resist it and can ask for & be granted forgiveness. This tension will go on as long as they are still in this world.

Hope this helps.
Cheers

Vincitveritas · 25/09/2022 21:05

Cillery · 25/09/2022 14:55

Of course there are differences - as in a family. That doesn’t make them any less a family.

That's what I'm saying, in an ideal world it would be one big family but the reality is some people think that if you're not Roman Catholic you aren't saved, or vice versa, which doesn't help anyone.

faretheewell · 25/09/2022 21:24

@Vincitveritas, from what I've read about the RC stance on this is that they cannot guarantee whether other denominations can be saved or not because they are fully convinced on the dogma of the RC church - not churches of other denominations. Which I can sort of understand. Their 'reach', interests and knowledge are limited to their own church.

I can understand the hurt this can cause too, it is upsetting to be excluded by other Christians. I do recall church leaders of different denominations do meet from time to time to discuss topics such as church unity.

BEAM123 · 25/09/2022 21:49

I think the idea was that as the children of Israel had the practice of sacrifice to atone for sins, that somehow by Jesus dying he became a human sacrifice for all sins. However it doesn't really work theologically (in my opinion) because animal sacrifice was only for unintentional sins, not the big ones. And also human sacrifice was already clearly outlawed in the story of Abraham and Isaac.

Vincitveritas · 25/09/2022 22:25

faretheewell · 25/09/2022 21:24

@Vincitveritas, from what I've read about the RC stance on this is that they cannot guarantee whether other denominations can be saved or not because they are fully convinced on the dogma of the RC church - not churches of other denominations. Which I can sort of understand. Their 'reach', interests and knowledge are limited to their own church.

I can understand the hurt this can cause too, it is upsetting to be excluded by other Christians. I do recall church leaders of different denominations do meet from time to time to discuss topics such as church unity.

Thanks for this, I'm glad to hear there's discussions being held, hopefully it can lead to better unity in the long run.

Vincitveritas · 25/09/2022 22:57

@SilverLiningPlaybook That's not the only reference to the resurrection of the dead in the Bible. Do you believe Jesus was resurrected? He acted as the "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (meaning died). It says in Philippians 3:20, "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

Also John 5:25-29, "Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Eventually there will be a new creation, with a new Earth. We won't be disembodied spirits floating around, they will be physical, but without the disease and decay etc our current bodies experience. Jesus said this in Luke 24:36-39, "While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

I'm surprised you don't believe Jesus and God are one in the same, are you JW?

Vincitveritas · 25/09/2022 23:31

@Naijagal I remember your username from the 'How do people become Christians?' thread. I assumed you were asking because you're not a Christian (confused now!). Out of curiosity, which category would you put my answers under?

SilverLiningPlaybook · 25/09/2022 23:35

Vincitveritas · 25/09/2022 22:57

@SilverLiningPlaybook That's not the only reference to the resurrection of the dead in the Bible. Do you believe Jesus was resurrected? He acted as the "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (meaning died). It says in Philippians 3:20, "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

Also John 5:25-29, "Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Eventually there will be a new creation, with a new Earth. We won't be disembodied spirits floating around, they will be physical, but without the disease and decay etc our current bodies experience. Jesus said this in Luke 24:36-39, "While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

I'm surprised you don't believe Jesus and God are one in the same, are you JW?

No, I was brought up as one and retain that belief although not any of the rest of it. It seems mainstream Christian belief is similar in many ways to the JWs. I’ve always thought the idea they have of a new earth where there is no pain or death and everyone lives forever in a physical body ridiculous. It seems mainstream Christianity shares this belief.

Cillery · 26/09/2022 07:39

BEAM123 · 25/09/2022 21:49

I think the idea was that as the children of Israel had the practice of sacrifice to atone for sins, that somehow by Jesus dying he became a human sacrifice for all sins. However it doesn't really work theologically (in my opinion) because animal sacrifice was only for unintentional sins, not the big ones. And also human sacrifice was already clearly outlawed in the story of Abraham and Isaac.

I think you need to read the new Testament to see that Jesus was the ultimate Messiah not just for Israel but for the whole world and the fulfilment of the prophecies of the Old Testament. You also have to see that in the person of Jesus, ‘God was in the Messiah reconciling the world to himself’ that in the person of Jesus God was taking upon Himself the entire evil and sin of the world, making a way for mankind to return to him through grace.

BEAM123 · 26/09/2022 07:52

Cillery · 26/09/2022 07:39

I think you need to read the new Testament to see that Jesus was the ultimate Messiah not just for Israel but for the whole world and the fulfilment of the prophecies of the Old Testament. You also have to see that in the person of Jesus, ‘God was in the Messiah reconciling the world to himself’ that in the person of Jesus God was taking upon Himself the entire evil and sin of the world, making a way for mankind to return to him through grace.

I know that this is what Christians believe but it doesn't explain how, why, or the mechanism. Which is what OP was asking.....'how does it all work?'

Also, Jesus wasn't the Messiah for Israel because there are quite clear definitions of how you recognise a Messiah and it's by what they achieve on a physical earth. Sadly, Jesus didn't achieve that, and nobody has done, to date.

Pinktoothbrushesarefab · 26/09/2022 09:09

@faretheewell from what I've read about the RC stance on this is that they cannot guarantee whether other denominations can be saved or not because they are fully convinced on the dogma of the RC church - not churches of other denominations. Which I can sort of understand. Their 'reach', interests and knowledge are limited to their own church.

You are misinformed.

The Bible teaches that salvation is through Christ alone. In Acts 4:12, Peter says, “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
The Catholic Church affirms the truth of this statement, yet also teaches that non-believers can be saved:
“Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to his grace”

HTH

Vincitveritas · 26/09/2022 09:11

@SilverLiningPlaybook This might be a shared belief but there are also many key differences, please see:
www.gotquestions.org/Jehovah-Witness-Christian.html

Vincitveritas · 26/09/2022 09:16

@BEAM123 What are the clear definitions?

Vincitveritas · 26/09/2022 09:22

teaches that non-believers can be saved

through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, yet

@Pinktoothbrushesarefab But Protestants are believers, we have just chosen to go about things a different way, so where does that leave us in the eyes of the RCC?

Pinktoothbrushesarefab · 26/09/2022 09:29

@Vincitveritas To clarify the Church’s teaching, the Holy Office, with the approval of Pope Pius XII, sent a letter to the Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Richard Cushing, on 8 August 1949. It stated, among other things, that in order for someone to be saved, “it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing".
So when we get to heaven – and let us pray that we will – we will find there not only our fellow Catholics but also people of all beliefs who lived and died well, helped by grace, who sought to fulfil the will of God as they knew it.

Vincitveritas · 26/09/2022 09:49

@BEAM123 Some of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled at Passover from the Jews for Jesus website:

Yeshua (Jesus) fulfilled dozens of messianic prophecies over the course of his life. He was born in Bethlehem, came from the line of David, healed the sick and blind, raised the dead, and even arrived at exactly the right point in history. Many of the prophecies that he fulfilled happened during Passover, giving this already significant holiday an even deeper meaning to anyone who wishes to investigate for themselves. Here are five:

1. The Passover lamb foreshadowed the Messiah.
Prophecy:
“The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs” (Exodus 12:1-51 NIV).
Fulfillment:
“You know that you were redeemed… with precious blood like that of a lamb without defect or spot, the blood of Messiah” (1 Peter 1:18-19 TLV).
Just like the Passover lamb, Yeshua was without defect (sin). This is why he could make atonement with his death and resurrection in a way that no lamb or imperfect human intercessor ever could. The lamb’s blood was a covenant—an agreement and a sign between God and those who used it that the blood would protect them. In the same way that the blood covered our ancestors from the wrath of God, Yeshua’s sacrifice offers the same covering. In fact, he instituted the renewed covenant promised to the Jewish people with a cup representing his blood (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Luke 22:10).

2. David described Yeshua’s death (in detail) one thousand years before it happened.
Prophecy:
“My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?…All who see me mock me. They curl their lips, shaking their heads: ‘Rely on Adonai! Let Him deliver him! Let Him rescue him—since he delights in Him!'… I am poured out like water, and all my bones are disjointed. My heart is like wax—melting within my innards. They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They stare, they gape at me. They divide my clothes among them, and cast lots for my garment” (Psalm 22:2, 8-9, 15-19 TLV).
Fulfillment:
“In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. ‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’… About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?’ (which means ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’)” (Matthew 27:41-43, 46 NIV).
“When the soldiers had nailed Yeshua to the stake, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, a share for each soldier, with the under-robe left over. Now the under-robe was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom; so they said to one another, ‘We shouldn’t tear it in pieces; let’s draw for it.’… After this, knowing that all things had accomplished their purpose, Yeshua, in order to fulfill the words of the Tanakh, said, ‘I’m thirsty.’ A jar full of cheap sour wine was there; so they soaked a sponge in the wine, coated it with oregano leaves and held it up to his mouth.… One of the soldiers stabbed his side with a spear, and at once blood and water flowed out” (John 19:23-24, 28-29, 34 CJB).
David experienced a lot of challenges and persecution in his lifetime, and in Psalm 22, it seems as though he’s writing about himself. However, this description of a tortuous execution doesn’t fit any event in David’s life. It reads much more like a prophetic and strikingly accurate foreshadowing of the future suffering of David’s descendant, the Messiah. David describes being forsaken by God, being mocked by bystanders, being handed over to the mercy of God, experiencing intense thirst, his hands and feet being pierced, being poured out like water, and his garments being divided up and gambled for.

Yeshua’s final words echo the end of the Psalm itself: It is finished.
Perhaps the most startling imagery with connection to the crucifixion is the piercing of the hands and feet. These verses are hotly contested, as the oldest available versions of the Hebrew text seem to use the word k’ari (like a lion), making it say, “like a lion, my hands and feet.” From a textual critic’s perspective, this makes no sense. For the Greek Septuagint translation, the original Hebrew word was interpreted to be ka’aru (pierced) instead, which makes much more sense. Therefore, we can safely assume that David was indeed depicting a crucifixion.

Psalm 22 can be applied to what would happen to his descendant Jesus in his execution during the week of Passover. He died, with his hands and feet pierced, and cried out to God with the exact same words David used in his psalm. He was mocked, and those ridiculing him taunted him with the words, “Let God come and rescue him.” While affixed to the cross, Yeshua expressed his intense thirst, again mirroring the words of David. The soldiers divided his clothes into four shares and gambled for them. After he died, a soldier pierced his side and water flowed out of the wound. Yeshua’s final words echo the end of the Psalm itself: “It is finished” (Psalm 22:31; John 19:30).

3. The Messiah would bear our sins and suffer silently in our place.
Prophecy:
“But he was wounded because of our crimes, crushed because of our sins; the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him, and by his bruises we are healed. We all, like sheep, went astray; we turned, each one, to his own way; yet Adonai laid on him the guilt of all of us. Though mistreated, he was submissive—he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb led to be slaughtered, like a sheep silent before its shearers, he did not open his mouth” (Isaiah 53:5-7 CJB).
Fulfillment:
“And while He was accused by the ruling kohanim and elders, He did not answer. Then Pilate said to Him, ‘Don’t You hear how many things they testify against you?’ Yeshua did not answer, not even one word, so the governor was greatly amazed” (Matthew 27:12-14 TLV).
“The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, ‘Surely this man was the Son of God!’” (Mark 15:38-39 NIV).
Long ago, the prophet Isaiah described a Messiah who would suffer on behalf of his people. This also has been widely discussed in Jewish and Christian circles. Was the prophecy referring to the Messiah or to Israel? The short answer is both, but the question remains, How can Israel atone for Israel? This prophecy makes more sense if we read it as painting a picture of an atoning Messiah. Isaiah describes a man who will be wounded because of our sins and will carry the weight of our iniquity. He also wrote that he will not open his mouth to defend himself.

Yeshua’s atoning sacrifice made it possible to approach God without a barrier.
When Yeshua found himself on trial, he made no defense for himself, much to the astonishment of the Roman governor. No matter how ridiculous the charge was, Yeshua humbly and willingly submitted to the judgment. Immediately after he died, there was a report that the parokhet (the curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple) ripped in two from top to bottom. Previously, only the High Priest could enter and see what was behind that curtain. There, he would make intercession for the people. The sudden rending of this curtain would have been a shocking thing to happen at any time, but because it happened at the holy time of Passover, it was likely perceived as an omen of some kind. While many may not have been able to interpret it then, God was demonstrating that Yeshua’s atoning sacrifice made it possible to approach Him without a barrier.

4. The Messiah would come riding on a donkey.
Prophecy:
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey” (Zechariah 9:9 ESV).
Fulfillment:
“As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, ‘Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.’ This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: ‘Say to Daughter Zion, “See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey”’” (Matthew 21:1-5 NIV).
Zechariah predicted that the Messiah would be recognized by arriving in the holy city of Jerusalem on a donkey. Five days before Passover began, on the day that the lambs were selected for sacrifice, Yeshua rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. Joyful crowds greeted him, throwing their coats on the road and waving palm branches in praise. They recognized the fulfillment of Zechariah’s prophecy and heralded Yeshua as the anointed king Messiah.

5. The Messiah would be resurrected.
Prophecy:
“For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay” (Psalm 16:10 NASB).
Fulfillment:
“You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us.… David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave. God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this” (Acts 2:29, 31-32 NLT).
David wrote that God would not allow his Holy One to see decay. In the original context of Psalms, that could sound like he was simply expressing how God would elongate his life. But as Peter points out, David did eventually succumb to death, and his body lay nearby. So who would be impervious to the effects of death altogether?

As David’s descendant, Yeshua embodied the Psalm’s prophetic power.
After witnessing (along with many others) the resurrection of Yeshua three days after his death at Passover, Peter points to David’s words and proclaims that Yeshua was the Holy One, the anointed one of God who would not be overcome by death. As David’s descendant, Yeshua embodied the Psalm’s prophetic power and offered the ancient hope we have in an inheritance of eternal life.

Conclusion:
In all these prophecies, we see that Yeshua fulfilled the biblical expectations and foreshadowing of what the Messiah would do: he was a willing sacrifice, a suffering servant, who came peacefully, was crucified, and was resurrected from the dead. In doing this during the holiday of Passover, when we remember God’s faithfulness to deliver us from bondage, Yeshua added even greater significance to this festival. If the implications of these claims are true, we have the opportunity to not only celebrate our redemption from slavery, but reconciliation with God through Messiah Yeshua.

Georkkardnoir · 26/09/2022 10:01

Christianity in a nutshell (for me)

we lived in heaven with God before we were born. In heaven we were spirits, but in order to be like God we needed to have bodies. (Earth enters the chat) being born on earth gives us bodies. God gives us commandments to live a good life. God gave us agency (choice) to choose our own decisions (obedience is false if it is forced) God knew we would sin on earth, and therefore not be able back in to heaven (no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God) Jesus, our brother volunteered himself as saviour. In order for our sins to be made clean, an innocent saviour (sacrificial lamb) must die and break the bands of death for us. Jesus performed the atonement before dying on the cross. This was where he suffered all our sins and every other emotion we have that causes pain. This was the main part of how Jesus has saved us. (Jesus died and his body laid for three days, and then he rose from the dead) This was the resurrection. Jesus fulfilled old laws so that we no longer had to send sacrifices to God, e.g. first of flock. Now because no unclean thing can enter into heaven, and because Jesus was actually a God, and could withstand the atonement, he is able to act as our go between with God. He can say “Father, (insert name here) has sinned, however I they have repented for this sin with me, and I have taken on this sin and have suffered for them, they are clean” So Jesus doesn’t actually null the sin, he takes it from us and takes the suffering/consequences. He can do this because he is a God, and performed the atonement. We must repent of our sins with Jesus, before being in Gods presence. I always thought well, can’t God just change the rules? But i have come to learn that God is justice. He is bound by law, and without this law he would cease to be God. God loves us infinitely and allowed a way for us to return by letting his only begotten son (jesus was his child in heaven and earth) to suffer all of our sins. I can only imagine the pain of seeing your child do this and know can’t take that pain away. Of course, he could have - but it would have nullified his Godhood, Jesus’ life and work, and ultimately our plan to live with God again in Heaven and receive a fullness of Joy with bodies.

Vincitveritas · 26/09/2022 10:18

@Pinktoothbrushesarefab Thank you & Amen!

@Georkkardnoir A God or the God? Are you saying believers don't suffer emotional pain here on earth? (not attacking, just wondering 💜).

BEAM123 · 26/09/2022 11:26

Vincitveritas · 26/09/2022 09:49

@BEAM123 Some of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled at Passover from the Jews for Jesus website:

Yeshua (Jesus) fulfilled dozens of messianic prophecies over the course of his life. He was born in Bethlehem, came from the line of David, healed the sick and blind, raised the dead, and even arrived at exactly the right point in history. Many of the prophecies that he fulfilled happened during Passover, giving this already significant holiday an even deeper meaning to anyone who wishes to investigate for themselves. Here are five:

1. The Passover lamb foreshadowed the Messiah.
Prophecy:
“The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs” (Exodus 12:1-51 NIV).
Fulfillment:
“You know that you were redeemed… with precious blood like that of a lamb without defect or spot, the blood of Messiah” (1 Peter 1:18-19 TLV).
Just like the Passover lamb, Yeshua was without defect (sin). This is why he could make atonement with his death and resurrection in a way that no lamb or imperfect human intercessor ever could. The lamb’s blood was a covenant—an agreement and a sign between God and those who used it that the blood would protect them. In the same way that the blood covered our ancestors from the wrath of God, Yeshua’s sacrifice offers the same covering. In fact, he instituted the renewed covenant promised to the Jewish people with a cup representing his blood (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Luke 22:10).

2. David described Yeshua’s death (in detail) one thousand years before it happened.
Prophecy:
“My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?…All who see me mock me. They curl their lips, shaking their heads: ‘Rely on Adonai! Let Him deliver him! Let Him rescue him—since he delights in Him!'… I am poured out like water, and all my bones are disjointed. My heart is like wax—melting within my innards. They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They stare, they gape at me. They divide my clothes among them, and cast lots for my garment” (Psalm 22:2, 8-9, 15-19 TLV).
Fulfillment:
“In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. ‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’… About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?’ (which means ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’)” (Matthew 27:41-43, 46 NIV).
“When the soldiers had nailed Yeshua to the stake, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, a share for each soldier, with the under-robe left over. Now the under-robe was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom; so they said to one another, ‘We shouldn’t tear it in pieces; let’s draw for it.’… After this, knowing that all things had accomplished their purpose, Yeshua, in order to fulfill the words of the Tanakh, said, ‘I’m thirsty.’ A jar full of cheap sour wine was there; so they soaked a sponge in the wine, coated it with oregano leaves and held it up to his mouth.… One of the soldiers stabbed his side with a spear, and at once blood and water flowed out” (John 19:23-24, 28-29, 34 CJB).
David experienced a lot of challenges and persecution in his lifetime, and in Psalm 22, it seems as though he’s writing about himself. However, this description of a tortuous execution doesn’t fit any event in David’s life. It reads much more like a prophetic and strikingly accurate foreshadowing of the future suffering of David’s descendant, the Messiah. David describes being forsaken by God, being mocked by bystanders, being handed over to the mercy of God, experiencing intense thirst, his hands and feet being pierced, being poured out like water, and his garments being divided up and gambled for.

Yeshua’s final words echo the end of the Psalm itself: It is finished.
Perhaps the most startling imagery with connection to the crucifixion is the piercing of the hands and feet. These verses are hotly contested, as the oldest available versions of the Hebrew text seem to use the word k’ari (like a lion), making it say, “like a lion, my hands and feet.” From a textual critic’s perspective, this makes no sense. For the Greek Septuagint translation, the original Hebrew word was interpreted to be ka’aru (pierced) instead, which makes much more sense. Therefore, we can safely assume that David was indeed depicting a crucifixion.

Psalm 22 can be applied to what would happen to his descendant Jesus in his execution during the week of Passover. He died, with his hands and feet pierced, and cried out to God with the exact same words David used in his psalm. He was mocked, and those ridiculing him taunted him with the words, “Let God come and rescue him.” While affixed to the cross, Yeshua expressed his intense thirst, again mirroring the words of David. The soldiers divided his clothes into four shares and gambled for them. After he died, a soldier pierced his side and water flowed out of the wound. Yeshua’s final words echo the end of the Psalm itself: “It is finished” (Psalm 22:31; John 19:30).

3. The Messiah would bear our sins and suffer silently in our place.
Prophecy:
“But he was wounded because of our crimes, crushed because of our sins; the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him, and by his bruises we are healed. We all, like sheep, went astray; we turned, each one, to his own way; yet Adonai laid on him the guilt of all of us. Though mistreated, he was submissive—he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb led to be slaughtered, like a sheep silent before its shearers, he did not open his mouth” (Isaiah 53:5-7 CJB).
Fulfillment:
“And while He was accused by the ruling kohanim and elders, He did not answer. Then Pilate said to Him, ‘Don’t You hear how many things they testify against you?’ Yeshua did not answer, not even one word, so the governor was greatly amazed” (Matthew 27:12-14 TLV).
“The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, ‘Surely this man was the Son of God!’” (Mark 15:38-39 NIV).
Long ago, the prophet Isaiah described a Messiah who would suffer on behalf of his people. This also has been widely discussed in Jewish and Christian circles. Was the prophecy referring to the Messiah or to Israel? The short answer is both, but the question remains, How can Israel atone for Israel? This prophecy makes more sense if we read it as painting a picture of an atoning Messiah. Isaiah describes a man who will be wounded because of our sins and will carry the weight of our iniquity. He also wrote that he will not open his mouth to defend himself.

Yeshua’s atoning sacrifice made it possible to approach God without a barrier.
When Yeshua found himself on trial, he made no defense for himself, much to the astonishment of the Roman governor. No matter how ridiculous the charge was, Yeshua humbly and willingly submitted to the judgment. Immediately after he died, there was a report that the parokhet (the curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple) ripped in two from top to bottom. Previously, only the High Priest could enter and see what was behind that curtain. There, he would make intercession for the people. The sudden rending of this curtain would have been a shocking thing to happen at any time, but because it happened at the holy time of Passover, it was likely perceived as an omen of some kind. While many may not have been able to interpret it then, God was demonstrating that Yeshua’s atoning sacrifice made it possible to approach Him without a barrier.

4. The Messiah would come riding on a donkey.
Prophecy:
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey” (Zechariah 9:9 ESV).
Fulfillment:
“As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, ‘Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.’ This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: ‘Say to Daughter Zion, “See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey”’” (Matthew 21:1-5 NIV).
Zechariah predicted that the Messiah would be recognized by arriving in the holy city of Jerusalem on a donkey. Five days before Passover began, on the day that the lambs were selected for sacrifice, Yeshua rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. Joyful crowds greeted him, throwing their coats on the road and waving palm branches in praise. They recognized the fulfillment of Zechariah’s prophecy and heralded Yeshua as the anointed king Messiah.

5. The Messiah would be resurrected.
Prophecy:
“For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay” (Psalm 16:10 NASB).
Fulfillment:
“You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us.… David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave. God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this” (Acts 2:29, 31-32 NLT).
David wrote that God would not allow his Holy One to see decay. In the original context of Psalms, that could sound like he was simply expressing how God would elongate his life. But as Peter points out, David did eventually succumb to death, and his body lay nearby. So who would be impervious to the effects of death altogether?

As David’s descendant, Yeshua embodied the Psalm’s prophetic power.
After witnessing (along with many others) the resurrection of Yeshua three days after his death at Passover, Peter points to David’s words and proclaims that Yeshua was the Holy One, the anointed one of God who would not be overcome by death. As David’s descendant, Yeshua embodied the Psalm’s prophetic power and offered the ancient hope we have in an inheritance of eternal life.

Conclusion:
In all these prophecies, we see that Yeshua fulfilled the biblical expectations and foreshadowing of what the Messiah would do: he was a willing sacrifice, a suffering servant, who came peacefully, was crucified, and was resurrected from the dead. In doing this during the holiday of Passover, when we remember God’s faithfulness to deliver us from bondage, Yeshua added even greater significance to this festival. If the implications of these claims are true, we have the opportunity to not only celebrate our redemption from slavery, but reconciliation with God through Messiah Yeshua.

Jews for Jesus are essentially Christians, not Jews.
Jews, who follow the Torah ('Old' Testament), as written in the original Hebrew, would not agree with the above. Also bear in mind, ALL translation is interpretation because there is very little that translates directly from one language to another.

And, as an example, anyone can ask to be brought a donkey or choose to do things a certain way so they can apparently fulfill an old prophecy.
But a Messiah was always meant to be an earthly King, like David. And kingship passes down the male line. Jesus was only descended from David via the maternal line.

Anyway I am not here to get into religious debates, the OP asked what the mechanism was and how it works and quoting long religious texts that are translated /interpreted to fit one groups beliefs, doesn't really answer the original question.

I tried to answer those questions myself many years ago as it didn't make sense to me, and it still doesn't.

The one important thing is that we behave like decent human beings while here and treat each other, the earth and it's various inhabitants well. Everything else is just commentary.

Georkkardnoir · 26/09/2022 11:51

A God. I believe Jesus is literally the son of God on Earth (half god or whatever) being born of mary and the Lord God. After his resurrection, he became a true God, working alongside The Lord.

I definitely believe people feel real emotional pain - I have felt it and seen it! I also commit sin, nobody is perfect! But I also believe that Jesus Christ has also felt these things through the atonement. I know he understands my emotional turmoil because he has felt exactly it. It gives me a place to turn for peace and acceptance with my feelings because I know he has felt the same, and it has given me much comfort. Sin isn’t the only thing that hurts us, Jesus didn’t just take on all our sins, but every time we’ve felt different, or misunderstood, upset, depressed, anxious, grief etc etc. Because of this, he can soothe and comfort our souls and be with us exactly on our emotional level at that time.

faretheewell · 26/09/2022 12:42

You are misinformed.

@Pinktoothbrushesarefab, sorry, thanks for clarifying. I been trying to find what I read that gave me that impression. I do remember reading something in the vein of what I posted and thinking about it but maybe I misunderstood it or it was an interview and I took something out of context.

Naijagal · 26/09/2022 12:50

Vincitveritas · 25/09/2022 23:31

@Naijagal I remember your username from the 'How do people become Christians?' thread. I assumed you were asking because you're not a Christian (confused now!). Out of curiosity, which category would you put my answers under?

Do I come across as a Christian now?
Your answers have had truth in them but have veered off topic, I understand you are trying to steer people to the truth but if someone was genuinely seeking what Christianity basics are, they will be confused by this thread so far.

Cillery · 26/09/2022 13:57

BEAM123 · 26/09/2022 07:52

I know that this is what Christians believe but it doesn't explain how, why, or the mechanism. Which is what OP was asking.....'how does it all work?'

Also, Jesus wasn't the Messiah for Israel because there are quite clear definitions of how you recognise a Messiah and it's by what they achieve on a physical earth. Sadly, Jesus didn't achieve that, and nobody has done, to date.

Clear definitions? Ever read Isaiah?

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