Christianity basics

[Hotandbothereds]

I’m not a practicing Christian but I went to C of E primary school, regularly attended Sunday school with my grandparents as a child, so I feel like I know a lot of the Bible and always thought I had a good grasp of the religion.

But I feel like I’ve missed a huge piece of learning somewhere, can anyone explain?

I understand that in the Christian faith Jesus died to save our sins, but how? How is that connection made? How did his death make that happen?

And if he saved our sins then, do people who believe that consider themselves to be without sin?

I’m sorry if this sounds ridiculous, I genuinely feel like I somehow missed a huge important piece of learning here.

The CofE version of Nicene Creed sums up what most Christians (and I use the term loosely!) believe:

'We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is,
seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.'

The Apostles Creed is a shorter version of this and a way to proclaim our common faith:

'I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.'

Got Questions explains more about the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice:

'During the lifetime of Jesus, the holy temple in Jerusalem was the center of Jewish religious life. The temple was the place where animal sacrifices were carried out and worship according to the Law of Moses was followed faithfully. Hebrews 9:1-9 tells us that in the temple a veil separated the Holy of Holies—the earthly dwelling place of God’s presence—from the rest of the temple where men dwelt. This signified that man was separated from God by sin (Isaiah 59:1-2). Only the high priest was permitted to pass beyond this veil once each year (Exodus 30:10; Hebrews 9:7) to enter into God’s presence for all of Israel and make atonement for their sins (Leviticus 16).

...(On the cross) “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matthew 27:50-51).
So, what do we make of this? What significance does this torn veil have for us today? Above all, the tearing of the veil at the moment of Jesus’ death dramatically symbolized that His sacrifice, the shedding of His own blood, was a sufficient atonement for sins. It signified that now the way into the Holy of Holies was open for all people, for all time, both Jew and Gentile.

When Jesus died, the veil was torn, and God moved out of that place never again to dwell in a temple made with human hands (Acts 17:24). God was through with the temple and its religious system, and the temple and Jerusalem were left “desolate” (destroyed by the Romans) in A.D. 70, just as Jesus prophesied in Luke 13:35. As long as the temple stood, it signified the continuation of the Old Covenant. Hebrews 9:8-9 refers to the age that was passing away as the new covenant was being established (Hebrews 8:13).'

Interesting that Judaism has the same bible (Old Testament)
@adagio Not surprising at all if you understand the connection. This is from the UK Jews for Jesus website:

'100% Jewish, 100% Christian. Jews for Jesus has been a nonprofit since 1973, but Jewish people believing in Jesus has been a thing since, well, Jesus. Think about it. Jesus was Jewish. His first followers were Jewish. The authors who documented his life in the New Testament were Jewish. Christianity, which actually just means “followers of Messiah”, is Jewish to its very core. The teachings of Jesus were so compelling that they quickly spread throughout the world. It didn’t take long before there were way more Gentile followers of Jesus than Jewish ones. But what if that is just confirmation that Jesus really is who he claimed to be? Because of Jesus, people in remote corners of the world, as well as in the highest halls of learning, know something about the Jewish people and our teachings.

The Hebrew Scriptures teach that when the Messiah comes, the Gentiles will seek him, too. The Jewish Messiah is for all people, and those who follow him are united in one faith in the God of Israel.

As Messianic Jews we remain true to the original heart of our Jewish heritage, live a meaningful Jewish life today, and have abundant hope for the future. We reject the stereotype that Jewish people cannot be followers of Yeshua. We believe that not only can both identities be embraced, but they can enhance one another in a beautiful spiritual harmony. Because if Jesus really is the Messiah, there is nothing more Jewish than believing in him and sharing his message.'

The Bible is not perfect! It needs to be taken in the context it was written, by the people it was written by, like any historical document.

@SparklePopRampage The Bible has remained remarkably unchanged. Yes there are subtle differences after translation and re-writing but these are down the equivalent of spelling color the American way rather than the British English colour, or missing out a word. The actual commands and teachings remain the same despite parts of the Old Testament dating back to 1400 BC. We also know what languages it was written in - with the exception of a few books in Aramaic, the Old Testament was written in Hewbrew (the language of the Israelites) and the New Testament was in Greek (not the ancient variety). This is a good explanation:

'The earliest copies of parts of the Hebrew Old Testament were discovered in 1947. They are part of the famous Dead Sea Scrolls and actually date back to the first century BC. Even though they are at least 900 years older than any parts of the Bible we had before this, they are not the originals. They are copies. The originals have all been lost or destroyed. But this is not a cause for dismay. We’re almost certain what the original text said. Copying by scribes was done with great care in those days and because the text was regarded as sacred, the copyists were extremely painstaking. Today some 5000 hand-copied documents exist of all or part of the Bible, and they agree in 98% of the text! No other ancient writing has this amount of underlying support with such amazing agreement as to the text.'

and

'To the Jewish mind, the Old Testament was the word of God. This meant that they were very careful when they copied it. We do not have knowledge of the system the scribes used prior to AD100, but at that time, the Talmudists had taken over the responsibility of copying the Old Testament. They had a set of rules which were quite strict. The most important rules include not copying even the smallest mark from memory. They always had to look at the scroll or codex from which they were copying before they wrote a letter. They also had to make sure that the scroll or codex they were copying from was “certified” as a good copy.

In about AD500, the group of Jewish scribes known as the Masoretes took over the responsibility of copying the Old Testament. They had even stricter rules in that they numbered the letters in each book and knew the middle letters of each book, so they could check the accuracy of their copying down to the number of letters that they copied.
These rules grew out of a deep respect for the Old Testament as the word of God, which was something the scribes shared from the beginning. This shows that they were very careful in making their copies.'

The last few lines of the Bible include "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy cit, which are described in this book." A stark warning indeed! I'm sure the devoutly religious men translating the Bible will have had these words at the forefront of their mind.

"The Bible has remained remarkably unchanged. Yes there are subtle differences after translation and re-writing but these are down the equivalent of spelling color the American way rather than the British English colour, or missing out a word. The actual commands and teachings remain the same despite parts of the Old Testament dating back to 1400 BC. We also know what languages it was written in - with the exception of a few books in Aramaic, the Old Testament was written in Hewbrew (the language of the Israelites) and the New Testament was in Greek (not the ancient variety)"

@Vincitveritas
Whilst I don't dispute this, what does alter is people's interpretations. Language evolution, cultural perceptions and references, individual perceptions, prior knowledge all can change how people(s) respond to Bible teaching, understanding and interpretation. So there are denominational differences and individual differences. Of course church unity is an aim but so is humility. So taking humility seriously, how does (church) unity look? We all can stray so cannot trust entirely on our own perspectives.

My own take away from this, as an individual, is to continue to pray to want, do and perceive God's will- whilst recognising I might still get it wrong sometimes.

“God became man, so that man may become like God” St Athanasius

That process is salvation, and is a transformative, continual, dynamic relationship between God’s grace and human worship, prayer and attention to the divine. That constant "becoming" is what we're aiming for as Christians. When, like an archer, we "miss the mark", we sin, which is the literal meaning of the word. We're not bad people, just in need of recalibrating our aim. Maybe our shoulder needs healing and realignment.

We can choose to abide to God’s will, and not to our own wills (or “follow our own hearts” or any such new-agey fluff). Our own hearts and wills can lead us dangerously off-piste into the territory of delusions, darkness of the soul, and deep, far reaching consequences.

Adam and Eve allowed themselves to be deluded and deceived by the devil through the sin of pride in the garden, defecting from the state of divine grace & leading to the fallen state of the world, as humans’ sins and passions became amplified across time. Thus manifesting the horrifying consequences we see around us… eg ecological breakdown, disease, poverty, addictions, conflict, broken families & communities.

Christ came to earth in human incarnation to bring the antidote to the entanglement of sin, destruction and death which is being wrought upon the world. That is divine love, which is selfless, holy (holistic), compassionate and eternally merciful… not the possessive, grasping, egotistical and divisive earthy form that passes for love in our current consciousness. It is the immensely powerful force, as Dante put it, "the love that moves the Sun and other stars" in the heavens.

In return: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. “This is the first and great commandment. “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” Matthew 22 37 - 39

It’s right there in the contrast between the Lord’s Prayer and Alister Crowley’s axiom…

“Thy will be done” vs “Do what thou wilt”

Only by closely aligning our wills to God’s will, through love, prayer, fasting, repentance, quietude, subduing our egos, can our souls become whole, defragged and rejoined to God. "God's love is my love and my love is God's love" is the apogee of the cosmos. Something wicked this way comes when we follow our own wills, and leads to the atomisation of our souls, the wasteland of separation from God, and the loss of mercy of his healing and eternal life.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3 16

@DogandMog, lovely and moving post!

Not quite accurate. Translators have always been influenced by their inherent biases, some of these are well documented and others less so, but deliberate choices have been made by translators to, for example, encourage praise of some groups of people and censure of others.

Some of the biggest criticisms of christianity can be traced back to choices made by translators.

This is only applicable in very few cases. Alright, the word ‘church’ should be translated ‘congregation’ as Tyndale did, but on the whole the King James Version is remarkably faithful to the Greek NT that was available. We have better documents now and better facilities to look up the original languages so faults in translations can be readily detected. But as someone has said, there is no such thing as a ‘perfect’ translation. But we can be sure through textual criticism that the Greek NT text we have is about 99.5% pure. Remarkable!

The translation of the King James Bible had a much greater impact than words such as 'congregation'. It had a large part to play in a huge rise of hostility towards women which lasted centuries and in the shorter term directly contributed to the witch hunts of the c17th.

You are of course completely wrong here. Where in the king James version does it talk about hunting witches? Where does it talk about hostility towards women? You are just playing on the age-old prejudice against women. Let me give you a verse: “In the Messiah there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond nor free, but ye are all one in the Messiah.” It is not the king James Bible that is the problem. People they misuse it are the problem

For people investigating the Christian faith that I would recommend the book, ‘why Jesus?’ by Nicky Gumbel or his other book, ‘Searching Issues’

I'm not "completely wrong" at all. On the contrary in fact, but as I'm away from home this week I don't have evidence to hand to prove my point.

It’s allegorical, a take of spiritual enlightenment, a choice to be made (the two thieves. Leaving behind the spiritual 5 senses (5 wounds of Christ), reiterated in Revelation where Christ was crucified in Egypt (usually interpreted as the physical world). The Latin cross is again reflective of the 4 elements etc of the physical world.

he sacrifices himself to leave the physical lower self and is he goes through the alchemical process to return as his higher self.

the sins forgiven are those from the Garden of Eden

That’s how it was explained to me. God warned Adam and Eve to not eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because they will die. They contradicted God and ate the fruit therefore committed the first sin and since then people had to die physically and spiritually due to their sins just as God warned them. But God being graceful and merciful, sacrificed his own Son for people to be forgiven of their sins and live eternally in Haven with him. Before Jesus’s sacrifice, Moses law required sins to be cleansed with animal sacrifice’s blood, and without the shedding of blood there was no forgiveness. But those animal sacrifices were not perfect and only temporary until the perfect and everlasting sacrifice of Jesus. Through Jesus’s sacrifice of his own life for people’s sins and shed of his innocent blood on the crucifix, people are cleansed of all of their sins and can live eternally in Haven if they recognise Jesus as their saviour. There is no need for any further sacrifices and new, Jesus’s covenant is in place of old covenant.

Christians believe that all people are still sinners and no one is perfect and innocent apart from Jesus. But though the declaration of Jesus as their saviour and belief that he is the God who had taken all the sins of mankind upon himself and made himself a selfless and sacred sacrifice, paid with his innocent blood, their sins are forgiven and they could join him eternally in Heaven.

The Christian message is that history turned whenJesus died on the cross and rose again from the dead. Why? Because Jesus was the Son of God and on the cross he bore our sins. Now by putting our faith and trust in him we can come back into a relationship with God the creator as our Father through the Holy Spirit. There is a lot of talk in the new Testament about being ‘in the Messiah’ as being in Him brings us into relationship with God.
“So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

So if Jesus went to hell (I assume before being resurrected?) so we don’t have to, why do people still repent their sins?

Christians still have to recognise, confess and repent their sins as that’s what God asks them to do. God is impeccable and hates sin therefore sinners would not have been able to join him in Heaven if not for Jesus’ sacrifice. The rule was to die for the sins and this rule was broken by Jesus by dying, paying perpetual and complete price
for all the sins of mankind and resurrecting from the death to join God thus enabling people to do the same. But this does not mean that sinners can just be ok with their sins - by recognising Jesus as their God and Saviour, knowing that he hates sins and wanting to join him in Heaven, they in turn, hate sins and continuously ask for forgiveness. They also understand that they can not be saved through their own repentance as it’s not perfect and not everlasting (because they are flawed humans) therefore can not satisfy the rule of death (can not pay sufficient price for their sins) but they can be saved through Jesus’ sacrifice which was perfect, sufficient and everlasting (because he is faultless God).

Jesus went to hell?
Really??

@MacarenaMacarena Yes, I believe he did but, as PPs have said, there are many different ways to interpret the Bible and other Christians might think differently. I've copied a post I made on another thread. Sorry it's so long!!

There was still hope for those who had died before the arrival of the Messiah. Jesus conquered death itself. Between His death and resurrection Jesus descended into Hades, preached the gospel and brought salvation to some of the souls of the dead held captive there:

"But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe)." Ephesians 4:7-10.

"Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay." Acts 2:31.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits - to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." 1 Peter 3: 18-20.

"...But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." 1 Peter 4:5-6.

This is a long winded interpretation of the passage in 1 Peter 3:19 by a professor of Christian theology (much more qualified to answer than me!). There are many ways to look at it, but this lines up with what I personally believe:

'...The idea behind this doctrine is the problem of salvation for those people who lived before Christ died on the cross. Classic theology says that Christ’s death on the cross provided the way to escape from hell to heaven. The people who lived before Jesus never had a chance to have faith in his saving acts. The Bible offers hope for them in the book of Hebrews which says that Abraham had faith and his faith was accounted to him as righteousness. Others suggest that people before Christ were saved if they had faith in the coming of the Messiah.

But this doctrine focuses on those three days Jesus spent in the tomb between his death on Good Friday and his resurrection on Easter Sunday. This doctrine says that during those three days Jesus descended into hell and preached to all of those who died before Christ. He preached to them the meaning of his crucifixion, and those who responded Christ took to heaven.
...It is included in the Apostles’ Creed which says, “I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, He suffered, died and was buried, descended into Hell, and on the third day rose again and ascended into Heaven.” In recent years the phrase “descended into Hell” has been changed to “descended to the dead". In our text, we find that Jesus is in the business of breaking up death and breaking up alienation and separation from God. Jesus invaded hell to preach the gospel there. My conviction is that we have this life to decide for Christ or not. I believe when we die, our decision is made and our eternal destiny is set...that was a one and only occasion* *for the benefit of those who lived before Christ came. It doesn’t happen again.

I know this is a message of hope no matter what your definition of hell. If you view hell as a physical place, then this Scripture tells us that Christ disturbs that hell. God does not want anybody to go to there. The first verse of our passage today is the key verse. It says, “For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous….”That tells us that Jesus provides the way of escape. He died for our sins so that we do not have to go to that hell.

If you view hell as separation from God, then our text says Christ is disturbing hell. Verse 18 ends with these words, “…that he might bring you to God.” Jesus has declared war on separation from God. He is the bridge that brings us to God. We can walk the bridge of Christ who is the mediator to bring us to God. This obscure doctrine tells us that there is no limit to which Jesus will not go to reach us. If, at least once, he went all the way to the place of the dead to draw people to him, then there is certainly no place that we can go where he will not find us. There is no guilt that we can experience, no hopeless place where we find ourselves that is beyond the love, the care and the calling of God.'

@OMG12 Jesus wasn't crucified in Egypt - it was Golgotha, on a hill just outside Jerusalem.

I think when people ask questions like ‘what happened to people before Jesus’ we are putting the cart before the horse and asking technical theological questions that the New Testament hints at and can be answered, but blankets the question OP is asking. The question being asked is how we become Christians and that is by faith in the Messiah Jesus and his death on the cross. It is very clear from the gospels and from the writings of the new Testament that the Messiah died to take away our sins that through faith in him we might live a new life in the kingdom of God in relationship with God. That is Christianity.

Revelation 11:8, KJV: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

I know it’s unlikely, but the Bible contradicts itself (well on the surface)

@StopStartStop

The love of God is immeasurable, indescribable, and very real. It's going to be ok.

What do you mean by love? Genuine question? How does he/she love us and what makes it real?

Great thread by the way.

"I’m not a practicing Christian, so I don’t think this is for me."

The Alpha Course is designed to help anyone explore the Faith.

So why does it matter to you what other people want to believe?

"I’m more interested in peoples interpretations of the part I don’t feel has ever been explained to me."

So why does it matter to you?