Christianity basics

[Hotandbothereds]

I’m not a practicing Christian but I went to C of E primary school, regularly attended Sunday school with my grandparents as a child, so I feel like I know a lot of the Bible and always thought I had a good grasp of the religion.

But I feel like I’ve missed a huge piece of learning somewhere, can anyone explain?

I understand that in the Christian faith Jesus died to save our sins, but how? How is that connection made? How did his death make that happen?

And if he saved our sins then, do people who believe that consider themselves to be without sin?

I’m sorry if this sounds ridiculous, I genuinely feel like I somehow missed a huge important piece of learning here.

Prof. Walter Kotschnig told Holyoke College students to keep their minds open—“but not so open that your brains fall out.” 😁

@GobbolinoTheWitchesCat, you're welcome.

@Pinktoothbrushesarefab, indeed!😁 I do find it interesting though to consider how seemingly opposite points of view can fit together when taking into consideration differing contexts. It does involve being very comfortable with cognitive dissonance, though because full cognitive accommodation can take a while - many thing might well remain a mystery!

Hell means 'the grave', and it is related to 'heel', when you plant e.g.s potato and heel it into the soil. The grave is under the soil, where a body decays and the person knows nothing - "sleeps in the dust of the ground". Hell is not a place of fiery torment - that association with fires burning came in medieval times and before that was associated with ever-burning fires for rubbish around Rome and places where gas escaped from the earth and sometimes caught fire. So Christ died and spent three days in the grave

Yes it’s a creed of a day that we must be open-mindedness apart from from a few PC things. The question is does that open-mindedness mean we have to make the Scriptures say things they obviously don’t say?

Quite right. I can never let my brains fall out as far as making a text say something it doesn’t say though!

That's very interesting, thank you.

Yes it’s a creed of a day that we must be open-mindedness apart from from a few PC things. The question is does that open-mindedness mean we have to make the Scriptures say things they obviously don’t say?

That is so funny, I was thinking the other day how everything is becoming so polarised - how easily people and groups of people are demonised. Just shows you how different people respond to the same environment.

But in answer to your question, no we don't have to all agree but we should be empathetic and kind to other people, it's part of loving them. We don't have to agree but neither do we have to insult people or imply they are stupid for having differing points of view.

As, I said upthread, church unity is a goal but how does that look when considering the importance of humility?

@FrankTheThunderbirdI've also never (in 38 years) heard that Jesus spent 3 days in hell.
He didn’t, if you mean by Hell the place of the damned. There would have been no purpose in his going there, as no-one in Hell can be saved.

The Apostles’ Creed contains this line in Latin: descendit ad inferos. In older English the word inferos was translated as “hell,” but it was understood not to mean the place of the damned. It meant the temporary state where the just who died in pre-Christian times were kept, waiting for heaven to be opened to them. This place is commonly called the Limbo of the Fathers.

Jesus referred to this place when he said, “As Jonah was in the whale’s belly for three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the Earth three days and three nights” (Mt 12:40). The expression “heart of the Earth” doesn’t mean the grave, but the underworld, what the Jews called Sheol, which was thought to be located at the centre of the Earth. Sheol wasn’t a place of the damned, but a place where departed souls wandered.

Peter also refers to the Limbo of the Fathers: “It was in his spirit that he went and preached to the spirits who lay in prison” (1 Pt 3:19).

Before Our Lord walked this earth millions of people had been born, lived and died without experiencing Christianity. So it seems reasonable that they (both righteousness and unrighteous) had the opportunity to do so.
However, this doesn’t mean their experience of that realm was identical. Jesus made this clear in his parable of the poor man and Lazarus (Luke 16:22-26).

I believe in unity but not at the expense of truth. I believe in humility - humbling ourselves before what is clearly revealed in the scriptures rather than putting our own spin on it. I do believe that the New Testament knows better than we do when it says ‘The Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures’. Hence my wondering about whether the person who wrote the link had read that

@Cillery, and that is quite right by me. The only place we differ, I think is in tone. I like this passage 🙂

"14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
(Romans 14, King James Version)

People can be at different stages in their faith. Good not to put them off the whole thing by being overly harsh.

I appreciate your point but i think you will find here that Paul is talking about not disputing and being dogmatic about secondary matters that are not vital to salvation. We might think of things like whether we should eat meat or drink alcohol (not to excess of course). But when it comes to matters of ‘first importance’ I think you will find that Paul is as dogmatic as can be: “For I received as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.” He spends chapter after chapter expounding this and saying if anyone teaches contrary they are false teachers! In far more dogmatic terms than I have used!

"I appreciate your point but i think you will find here that Paul is talking about not disputing and being dogmatic about secondary matters that are not vital to salvation. We might think of things like whether we should eat meat or drink alcohol (not to excess of course). But when it comes to matters of ‘first importance’ I think you will find that Paul is as dogmatic as can be: “For I received as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.” He spends chapter after chapter expounding this and saying if anyone teaches contrary they are false teachers! In far more dogmatic terms than I have used!"

As I have said I don't disagree with you on that point but I am a sensitive soul, I don't think harsh words are always so necessary.

There are many different (and wild) interpretations out there and untangling their origins in a calm and moderate way can help draw people back into 'the fold'. A lot of people hold onto hurt over the violence and abuse of the established church over centuries. It is a good thing to show love and kindness, whilst of course, remaining firm in faith. 🙂

@JulesCobb

It is a line in the Apostle's Creed. ‘He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead’

I believe Hell in this context is better understood to mean the place of the dead, not the usual meaning on the word... as the key and terrifying aspect of the traditional meaning of "hell" is its everlasting nature. It's its everlasting nature is what defines it... so it makes no sense really to go there for three days, and more than it makes sense to say "I spent three days in eternity".

@Tuilpmouse As I understand it, the place referred to is called Sheol. It's a Hebrew word meaning 'the realm of the dead' or 'the place of departed spirits'. The Old Testament describes it as somewhere all souls go to after death. After being crucified Jesus also descended into Sheol and declared victory over death, taking the saved souls with him into heaven. Now we have entered the Church Age, the souls of believers who have died don't go to Sheol, but into God's presence in heaven. The New Testament, written in Greek, changes the word Sheol to Hades. This is described as the place souls of unbelievers go after death to await the final resurrection and subsequent judgement. Hell, as an everlasting lake of fire, comes after the last judgement. In the book of Revelation, Jesus is described as holding "the keys of death and Hades" (all power and authority). The three days means three earth days - as you say, time is not the same on the 'other side'.

@faretheewell I'm not sure what you mean by church unity being a goal. Do you mean a return of all the separate denominations to the Catholic Church?

@Vincitveritas, well, considering I'm not a Roman Catholic, that might be a bit of a mistake. So, no. Think about it...the ultimate goal is to be united with God. So everyone who believes in God in order to share in that unity needs to have unity with each other too. Catholics, Protestants, non denominationals...everyone who seeks this unless you believe this unity only belongs to one particular denomination. I don't believe that. God is there for everyone.

@faretheewell Thank you for clarifying, that makes sense. I would definitely love to see all Christians uniting, yes.

All Christians are united in the Messiah. We might do things differently in terms of how we worship but everyone who has a relationship with Jesus is automatically in unity with one another.

All Christians are united in the Messiah. We might do things differently in terms of how we worship but everyone who has a relationship with Jesus is automatically in unity with one another.

A lovely point to remember!🙂 And I like to think on how that includes Christians of all times, past, present and future. 😃

Watching the Queens funeral made me realise that I don’t have a clue what the Cof E really teaches. I found most of the sermons incomprehensible. All the talk about sin and rising from the dead. Do they believe we are all going to rise from our graves at some point? Literally or metaphorically? No wonder no one goes to church anymore. Jesus and God are not the same person either in my view. These services are just so out of touch with the beliefs and experience of most people.

If you listened to Welby’s funeral address this is standard Christian belief. Christians believe Jesus is divine - he was declared to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead” This is why the early Christians were persecuted - they believed Jesus was divine rather than Caesar.
As Jesus rose from the dead so will we through faith in Him.
The Queen of course was a very traditional church of England but there are churches which are far more in touch with the modern culture in terms of how they worship.

In God's eyes I hope that is the case, but you can't deny there's tension between Christians here on earth. It obviously only applies to a small minority, but my faith has been dismissed before on the bases that I'm not Catholic. There's more to it but I don't want to share the details because they're quite identifying. I found it very hurtful because, while I don't share their views on a lot of aspects, I still consider them brothers & sisters in Christ.

@SilverLiningPlaybook Yes, I believe there will be a literal resurrection. This is one of the Bible passages about it
(1 Corinthians 15:35-57):

'But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.'

This is one of my favourite hymns OP and really sums things up:

In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My comforter, my all in all
Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
Till on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live
There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin's curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ
No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life's first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
Till He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I'll stand