What did the devil ever do that was so bad?

[Kendodd]

My 13 year old asked me this, I struggled to answer and couldn't actually think of anything particularly bad (gave Eve an apple?) What did he do? Does he torture people in hell? I really don't know what it says about him in the bible.
He'd been doing RE (or whatever it's called now) and said that God did loads of terrible stuff but somehow he's the good guy.

We're not a religious family.

God acts like a jealous, abusive, unreasonable asshole for most of the Old Testament. He turned some chick into salt for looking over her shoulder. That was a pure dick move.

Re Eve's temptation. She was tempted by the snake to eat fruit that would give the knowledge of good and evil, right? So, prior to eating that fruit, she didn't know that it was a bad thing to disobey God because she had no knowledge of good and evil. So why was she punished for it?

@yahyahs22

He was jealous of the love he has for people and hates us, he wanted to be God so he convinced a third of the angels that God was a controlling tyrant. God casted him and the angels down to earth. The reason his did this and didn't just make him vanish was so the angels could see God wasn't controlling and followed him because of love not fear. Now we all get a genuine choice. Will we go to him through love or turn from him and believe Satan's lies (God's evil, God's not real etc) So satan disrupted the Heavens and subsequently the Earth.

To be fair Old Testament God was a bit of a controlling dick.

His actions would be considered abusive today so it isn't any wonder that so many chose to LTB.

I agree that it was a good question by your DS!

Shows great critical thinking skills...

@speakout

Also a bastardisation of an old Celtic god- Cernunnos, god of the forest- who was not known particulary for his malevolence. Part of the church's marketing ploy to wean communities from their old earth based religions, using fear.

Agree with the above. The devil, as thought of today in the West, is demonised old Horned God of nature.

Lucifer was the star of the heavens who rebelled and Satan means “adversary”. They may not even be the same entity.

Tish008, I don't recognise your description of Wicca. The one I know is very individualistic and not dogmatic.

I only found out about the supposed demon Lilith recently.

I had no idea that Adam had a first wife before Eve made from the same clay (instead of his rib) and cast out because she refused to be subservient to Adam

Lilith is now a strong contender for any future DD's middle name.

Good point langcleg
I suspect due to her possessing a vagina

@speakout

Don;t look for logic- this is christianity.

Islam says the same and probably judaeism, do you not agree?

@ocicat I've heard of the divine comedy and know the basics of it virgil guiding Dante through the 7 circles etc I'm just sure both Dante and Virgil were something to do with the devil. I vaguely remember something being said about it years ago in the 90s when Thunderbirds came back and had a Virgil in it, every since then it's kind of stuck in my head. Weird but I've never really thought about it until now.
I've obviously twisted two things together in my mind.

Islam says the same and probably judaeism, do you not agree?

I do agree.

Calling it Danté's Inferno doesn't help the confusion!

The majority of what we think we know has been gathered piecemeal from folklore, tv programmes, and classic literature. You have to go some to unpick all the different influences. You probably would want to unpick the question before trying to answer. Which 'the devil' is he thinking of?

I’m not religious, more an agnostic really.

I’ve always thought though that God (if he exists) sounds like an autocratic dictator, with Lucifer as the Leader of the Opposition who ends up being cast out for daring to voice a dissenting opinion. God brooked no dissent, of course.

If the worst that Lucifer ever did was suggest that Eve could eat the fruit (apple) which would lead to the understanding of the difference between good and evil then that seems fine to me.

Firstly, it's not the "tree of knowledge". We don't actually know what God called it. Eve just calls it "the tree in the middle of the garden". The devil tempts her to disobey God's rule by telling her that by eating it's fruit she will be greater than God and have "knowledge of gods and evil". It's full title would be "the knowledge of gods and evil" but even then, that wasn't what it was actually called.

Anyway, more to the point: Lucifer was the chief worship leader in have. He had visions of grandeur and tried to persuade angels to worship him instead. God didn't like this and cast him out of Heaven and he took a few "fallen angels" with him. Once God made the world, Lucifer/Satan/The devil has been trying to tempt people to disobey God's teachings and turn against one another. Another poster had it spot on that's it's like that one kid in class who pokes you and prods you then appears all affronted to the teacher when you poke him back and you end up in trouble.
Satan is the personification of all evil and injustice.

And for what it's worth I can't stand the way all threads on MN that ask thought provoking questions about Christianity turn sour and nasty with people criticising the faith without answering the OP's question. It is wholly unnecessary and does nothing to make your atheism look superior.

*good and evil. Not gods and evil.

Genesis 2. 9 King James Version. "And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

In Genesis 2 17 god says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." which turned out to be a lie. The first recorded lie was told by god and when Lucifer told them it would bring them knowledge he was the one telling the truth. So Lucifer is ahead there morally.

God doesn't come out well in Job either. Granted Lucifer does the killing, but it's at god's suggestion and the only purpose is so god can win a bet.

It's been a very long time since I studied the bible, but I recall very little about Satan/Lucifer. Most of what we 'know' about him is as others have said from external stories.

Still can't see anything particularly bad that the devil has done. God seems much worse.

I read something once which turned it all round - God is the evil one and Lucifer is the friend of humanity. God's greatest success is in getting people to believe it's the other way around.

Given the way they are portrayed in the bible it actually makes a lot of sense.

Interesting question -love that the boy is asking it!
I am completely not a believer in any religion it interested in questions like this.
If God is Light then there need to be a counterpart which is Dark and this duality therefore requires an entity which is ‘The Devil’, do a construct and onto that you can project any negativity in urge to preserve the ‘Goodness’ of ‘God’. Hence recreated backstories such acts being the fallen angel etc. Can be anything you like.

Sorry for typos!

Your kid has a great, analytical, curious mind. That's fantastic.

I went to Catholic school (now confidently atheist) and asked if Hitler was really sorry, would he go to hell - as he didn't physically hands on murder people. There may indeed be a biblically sound answer but rather than my teacher attempting to answer it or saying I don't know but interesting question and I'll check scripture, I got my only ever detention and a bollocking.

I've found in my personal experiences that a curious mind and refusal to accept people saying the equivalent of 'just because' is not compatible with religion.

God is the metaphor for goodness and love

"so the angels could see God wasn't controlling and followed him because of love not fear."

I don't know how someone could say this after reading the Bible. Love is frequently mentioned as part of God's contribution to mankind but his wrath, punishment and cruelty are shown and threatened.

To say otherwise absolutely is cherry picking passages from the Bible. When socially acceptable or moral by today's standards, scripture is to be taken literally. When not, it is described as allegory and metaphor for damage limitation.

The Bible says god does not permit mixing two fabrics in garments. Do Christians on this thread adhere to that?

The Bible says man laying with man is not permitted. Do the christians on this thread agree with that? Do they believe a sexuality from birth should deny someone a loving relationship for life?

Stand by the Bible being either metaphorical or literal rather than saying whatever doesn't make people label you as a bigot. Otherwise surely you are denying gods word. And isn't that a sin?

In Genesis 2 17 god says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." which turned out to be a lie.

Was it a lie? Does Genesis actually state that Adam and Eve were created mortal? Perhaps mortality was the consequence of knowledge.

The Jewish perspective of good and evil are somewhat different. As PPs have pointed out, there is no mention of the devil/Satan/Licufer in the Bible. The Jewish belief is that we are all born neutral, with infinite capacity for good and for evil. We all contain within us the the inclination towards good and the inclination towards evil. But the inclination towards evil is not of itself evil. It is what drives our creativity, for example.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Your kid has a great, analytical, curious mind. That's fantastic.

I went to Catholic school (now confidently atheist) and asked if Hitler was really sorry, would he go to hell - as he didn't physically hands on murder people. There may indeed be a biblically sound answer but rather than my teacher attempting to answer it or saying I don't know but interesting question and I'll check scripture, I got my only ever detention and a bollocking.

I've found in my personal experiences that a curious mind and refusal to accept people saying the equivalent of 'just because' is not compatible with religion.

On the hand, my Catholic school loved long rambling conversations with us students about religion, and encouraged us to question everything. I think a lot depends on the Order you go to.

What a fascinating question and thread!

Not read all of it but will.

I was raised RC and went to a convent pork primary. Lots of Bible including old testament.

The devil/ Satan doesn't really feature at all, does he? As a big thing.

Angel expelled. Can't remember why. Was it ever clear?

Temptation. Original sin. We're all born sinners and need to spend our lives making good. Especially women.

And is that it? I'm an atheist tbh but I got a lot of Bible as a kid.

'2020 07:51picklemewalnuts

The Old Testament God punished wrongdoing. An old fashioned kind of justice if you will. If you do nothing wrong, you won't get punished.'

Pickle it's been a while but I seem to remember men handing off their daughters to be raped in the OT...

BTW the knowledge given by the apple was about sex. Hence having sex is sinful in the Catholic church. The only consequence of eating the apple was the Adam and Eve felt guilty about being naked and covered up.
Hence Mary was born from a virgin as was Jesus, so free from original sin.
This is why Catholics object to birth control, because the only reason for sex is pregnancy.