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Philosophy/religion

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What did the devil ever do that was so bad?

120 replies

Kendodd · 16/12/2020 21:25

My 13 year old asked me this, I struggled to answer and couldn't actually think of anything particularly bad (gave Eve an apple?) What did he do? Does he torture people in hell? I really don't know what it says about him in the bible.
He'd been doing RE (or whatever it's called now) and said that God did loads of terrible stuff but somehow he's the good guy.

We're not a religious family.

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 17/12/2020 07:51

The Old Testament God punished wrongdoing. An old fashioned kind of justice if you will. If you do nothing wrong, you won't get punished.

The devil tries to stir trouble, undo good, persuade people to do wrong. Like the manipulative kid that gets everyone else in trouble at school.

speakout · 17/12/2020 07:59

he devil tries to stir trouble, undo good, persuade people to do wrong.

Like suggesting that Eve open her eyes and eat from the tree of knowledge? Instead of meekly assuming her role of Adam's plaything.

I think that was a pretty considerate and empowering suggestion from Old Nick.

picklemewalnuts · 17/12/2020 08:14

I see your point, but Adam and Eve were happy until then. They were free to do whatever they felt like. Then they ate the fruit of the tree and understood good and evil and were unhappy.

I'm not overly invested in the rights and wrongs of it. Just explaining why the traditional view is as it is.
Actual theology is a lot more complicated.

If you try and use the Bible superficially, as it is, without all the context and study into it and around it, then you end up with a very black and white superficial understanding of Christianity. It leads to both the vehement anti Christian rhetoric of a bloodthirsty god and slavish adherents, and tub thumping bigotry. The vast majority of Christians are not like that and do not interpret the Bible in that way.

Moondust001 · 17/12/2020 08:19

@speakout

You have to be christian to believe in the devil. If you don't believe in god then its all hypothetical. Lile asking why the tooth fairy beeds teeth.
You don't have to be Christian to believe in the devil. Every faith system has a "devil" even if they use another word for it. And even people without faith have a "devil" - somewhere we have a concept word that describes the worst of things, like "monster" or "evil". Whatever we believe (or don't), humans categorise and conceptualise - we want to find ways of describing "good" and "not good". The devil is part of that package.
speakout · 17/12/2020 08:21

The vast majority of Christians are not like that and do not interpret the Bible in that way.

No most christians are cherry pickers.

I see your point, but Adam and Eve were happy until then. They were free to do whatever they felt like

Like a child. Who wants like that?
To live like a 4 year old, but with no questioning mind.
Even with a benevolent parent not a life I would choose as an adult.
And the god of the bible has clearly shown himself not to be benevolent. Indeed by his own "admission" he is wrathful, venegful, jealous, quick to anger. Clearly not to be trusted.

NonyaBizniz · 17/12/2020 08:28

Completely love Stephen Fry’s tirade against God.

picklemewalnuts · 17/12/2020 08:34

Having a determinedly narrow way of viewing things is just as much cherry picking. You select and loathe a specific understanding and perspective, and then also criticise the people who don't share that very specific view as Cherry pickers. It doesn't lead anywhere. I don't know why you engage in conversations if you don't want to understand how other people's mind works. It comes across just like evangelical conversion attempts. It's tub thumping. Why bother?

speakout · 17/12/2020 08:39

picklemewalnuts

How do you know which parts of the bible to ignore exactly?

Iwantacookie · 17/12/2020 08:48

I always assumed Lucifer was the devil and he was gods angel until he did something wrong (but hazy on details now as I might be getting mixed up with the tv show lucifer)
I'm sure Dante was another of God's Angel's or on of the devils side kicks or something.

picklemewalnuts · 17/12/2020 11:40

Nothing is ignored. It should be studied, considered in the light of the culture that wrote it and compared with other parts of the Bible. The historical teaching of the church should be taken into account, translation issues, theologians who have discussed and interpreted it throughout the ages.

The history of the development of the Niceness Creed and management of 'heresies' over the years makes it very clear that reciting chunks of Bible as evidence of this or that is entirely pointless. I would not trust anyone who claimed to have definitive truth on any part of it. We may have that in common. Though I get the feeling you wouldn't trust anyone who does not rubbish it.

Nore · 17/12/2020 11:51

The history of the development of the Niceness Creed

That's slightly adorable. The First Council of Nicaea should definitely have evolved this. Grin

Tish008 · 17/12/2020 11:57

The devil represents the left hand path, he was cast down from heaven but is not the reason for humans sins, he doesn't tempt you. He represents going against gods word

Here's a good explanation

What Is the Left-Hand Path?
The left-hand path is considered to be about the elevation and centrality of the self as well as the rejection of religious authority and societal taboos.

The left-hand path focuses on the strength and will of the practitioner. It downplays the need for intercession by any high power although some may believe that a higher power exists.

Satanism (both LaVeyan and Theistic) and Luciferianism are considered left-hand paths. Followers of Thelema disagree whether it is a left- or right-hand path.

What Is the Right-Hand Path?
The right-hand path, in the words of left-hand path follower Vexen Crabtree, "concentrate[s] on the symbols of goodness, of the sun, of herd mentality and submission to god(s) and religious authority."

To put it a little more diplomatic, the right-hand path can be thought of as one of dogma, ritual, and a belief in the community and formal structure as well as a higher power. Though each of those can also be found in left-hand path religions, there is less focus on indulging the self in the right-hand path.

The vast majority of religions are considered part of the right-hand path, from Christianity to Wicca.

yahyahs22 · 17/12/2020 12:10

He was jealous of the love he has for people and hates us, he wanted to be God so he convinced a third of the angels that God was a controlling tyrant. God casted him and the angels down to earth. The reason his did this and didn't just make him vanish was so the angels could see God wasn't controlling and followed him because of love not fear.
Now we all get a genuine choice. Will we go to him through love or turn from him and believe Satan's lies (God's evil, God's not real etc)
So satan disrupted the Heavens and subsequently the Earth.

speakout · 17/12/2020 12:11

picklemewalnuts

I sincerely hope that much of the bible is fictional.

Charming tales of genocide don't endear me to leaders....

Hoppinggreen · 17/12/2020 12:19

He was expelled from Heaven for basically having an opinion
He was jealous of Man and felt that as a creation they were dangerous so told God this and suggested they be destroyed. Being autocratic God didn’t take this well but Lucifer didn’t back down and it turned into a war between 2 factions of Angels, one led by Michael and one by Lucifer.
Lucifers lot lost and him and his army lost their wings and were cast out from a Heaven. God gave Lucifer The Underworld (or Hell) as his domain and his name was changed to Satan,The Devil etc.
Lucifer blames the whole thing on Man so hates us and enjoys tempting us to prove to God how awful we are and so should never have been created in the first place.
I am not religious in the slightest but find it interesting as a story and especially the comparisons with Thor and Loki
Like with most things Christianity nicked its stories from older religions

DioneTheDiabolist · 17/12/2020 12:37

The devil concept that has evolved is not really biblical, it's a mishmash of religion, folklore and literature eg. Dante and Milton. In the bible god does all the judgement and punishment. At 13, I would encourage your DS to do his own exploration of the origins and purpose of the devil.

DioneTheDiabolist · 17/12/2020 12:43

I found Stephen Fry's answer in his interview with Gay Byrne disappointing. It was unoriginal and lacked imagination, a bit like asking a preteen: If you could invite anyone to your fantasy party who would you have? And their answer being: Little Mix.Xmas Grin

speakout · 17/12/2020 12:47

Also a bastardisation of an old Celtic god- Cernunnos, god of the forest- who was not known particulary for his malevolence.
Part of the church's marketing ploy to wean communities from their old earth based religions, using fear.

What did the devil ever do that was so bad?
picklemewalnuts · 17/12/2020 12:47

@Nore if only! The number of times I wrestled with autocorrect over that and still it triumphed! 🤦‍♀️

Not even trying anymore!

Dramalady52 · 17/12/2020 13:14

It was all part of the ineffable plan Grin

LastTrainEast · 17/12/2020 13:19

@yahyahs22

He was jealous of the love he has for people and hates us, he wanted to be God so he convinced a third of the angels that God was a controlling tyrant. God casted him and the angels down to earth. The reason his did this and didn't just make him vanish was so the angels could see God wasn't controlling and followed him because of love not fear. Now we all get a genuine choice. Will we go to him through love or turn from him and believe Satan's lies (God's evil, God's not real etc) So satan disrupted the Heavens and subsequently the Earth.
"so the angels could see God wasn't controlling and followed him because of love not fear. " you're kidding right?

"For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" "cross me and I'll hurt your children and grandchildren bad"

Nore · 17/12/2020 13:23

@DioneTheDiabolist

I found Stephen Fry's answer in his interview with Gay Byrne disappointing. It was unoriginal and lacked imagination, a bit like asking a preteen: If you could invite anyone to your fantasy party who would you have? And their answer being: Little Mix.Xmas Grin
Well, it's pretty obvious, yes, but I don't know why anyone would expect something of astonishing wisdom and originality from an actor being interviewed by a tv chatshow host?
LastTrainEast · 17/12/2020 13:26

The original story of the garden of Eden, the fruit and the temptation is interesting. They are punished for not obeying blindly when actual knowledge was denied to them. With that knowledge they might have made a different decision. Also they were tempted by a being god created knowing he would tempt them and they ate a fruit from a tree put there for that purpose.

Then of course god punishes everyone yet to be born but especially the women. Because that makes sense for a supposedly wise and just god.

The only good thing about god is that he is fictional. But you have to consider what kind of person would worship that main character

Ocicat · 17/12/2020 13:29

@Iwantacookie I'm sure Dante was another of God's Angel's or on of the devils side kicks or something.

No, just a regular human. He was an Italian poet, he wrote The Divine Comedy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy

DioneTheDiabolist · 17/12/2020 13:32

I used to expect a bit of originality and imagination from Stephen Fry, I don't any more.Xmas Sad

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