What did the devil ever do that was so bad?

[Kendodd]

My 13 year old asked me this, I struggled to answer and couldn't actually think of anything particularly bad (gave Eve an apple?) What did he do? Does he torture people in hell? I really don't know what it says about him in the bible.
He'd been doing RE (or whatever it's called now) and said that God did loads of terrible stuff but somehow he's the good guy.

We're not a religious family.

"The book of Job is allegory, not to be taken literally."

Who says? Many Christians DO believe it's to be taken literally.
Biblical answers

This site is even more sure: There is no question about it that the book of Job records true history.

Though apparently 'higher critics of Scripture claim that the book of Job is an allegory' - for "evil reasons" no less

You might disagree with these but the fact is that opinions are split, and no way of telling who's correct, as god forgot to make it clear.

I don't blame Christians for getting in a muddle about their own book. It makes so little sense at times (talking donkeys) and is so obviously wrong at others (solar system, etc) not to mention the moral aspects of breezing over some distasteful mass killings of innocent beings by god, no wonder they've had to come up with 'allegory' to explain some of this away.

LifeExperience so you're claiming that Jesus had nothing to do with the god in the old testament and that the story about that god supposedly creating the world was simple fiction. Welcome to atheism.

You're quite right of course. There was no connection and the old testament is fiction. It's not clear if Jesus had a long term plan beyond making enough at street preaching to avoid having to work for his dad, but those who went on to build a religion around him clearly did.

You should look at Joseph Smith who did much the same thing 2,000 years later.

You take an existing religion and claim a new revelation. You tell people they have the rules all wrong and you're here to fix that. You get them to transfer their direct debits to your church and now you're in business.

What is amazing is that it works so well. As others have pointed out old Joe's claims were ludicrous but they are the devout beliefs now of millions. The more time passes the more holy it becomes and the more people believe.

If someone came up to you cold and told you these stories you'd laugh and send them packing, but say they happened in the distant past and that gives it weight.

I mean gold plates and spectacles? Talking snakes and a god who must show his 'back parts' to people as he lacks the power to show his face without killing them? It's comedy gold until it becomes holy scripture.

[quote Ocicat]**@Iwantacookie* I'm sure Dante was another of God's Angel's or on of the devils side kicks or something.*

No, just a regular human. He was an Italian poet, he wrote The Divine Comedy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy[/quote]
Dante is to Italians what Shakespeare is to...I was going to say Britons but really the rest of the world.

Italians are taught Dante in schools and many can quote from his Divine Comedy.

Italians were recently greatly offended because an European scholar said that compared to Shakespeare, Dante was not all that.

As others have said, the Devil leads people away from God and into all sorts of sin/evil.

Interestingly, although I've not read the Bible from cover to cover I understand that Hell (as we visualise it) is not mentioned in the Bible. Comes down to translation issues, but hell referred to a burning rubbish dump outside the city...It was an analogy to represent what its like to be so far from God.

I think this may be why Judaism lacks a concept of hell (but I'm guessing so could be wrong).

(Incidentally, I believe we owe much of our cultural concept of hell to Dante and his Inferno.)

Individual evil deeds by the Devil are not typically recounted because he's responsible for so much evil and he acts through others rather than directly (so people who murder, steal, hurt others etc) whereas God's actions are righteous because its God...

...I think. My culturally CoE understanding it anyway :)

*of it

If you have a Bible, go to Genesis chapter 2 verse 9 and 15 till 17, it will explain about the fruit of the tree that God told Adam to not eat. In Genesis chapter 3 verse 1 till 7 will explain how did the snake talked to Eve to eat the fruit from the tree. If you don't have the Bible you can read it online

What did the devil ever do that was so bad?

Wear Prada?

He led a rebellion against a tyrant.

He represents everything that is evil, devious, but is highly seductive. He is the prince of lies, the snake in the grass, encouraging disobedience and chaos. He didn't offer Eve an apple, he suggested she eat fruit from the tree of knowledge - it could have been a peach! He really had to work on Eve who tried to resist temptation for quite a time but eventually succumbed. I always find it ironic that she gets the blame for everything but when she offered a piece of the fruit to Adam, he said, "OK", straight away and ate it.

Of course it is all allegorical but it's interesting. I loved religious studies when I was at school, still find it all fascinating.

Other religious traditions have similar stories. Don't get me started on Durga!

@LastTrainEast

LifeExperience so you're claiming that Jesus had nothing to do with the god in the old testament and that the story about that god supposedly creating the world was simple fiction. Welcome to atheism.

You're quite right of course. There was no connection and the old testament is fiction. It's not clear if Jesus had a long term plan beyond making enough at street preaching to avoid having to work for his dad, but those who went on to build a religion around him clearly did.

You should look at Joseph Smith who did much the same thing 2,000 years later.

You take an existing religion and claim a new revelation. You tell people they have the rules all wrong and you're here to fix that. You get them to transfer their direct debits to your church and now you're in business.

What is amazing is that it works so well. As others have pointed out old Joe's claims were ludicrous but they are the devout beliefs now of millions. The more time passes the more holy it becomes and the more people believe.

If someone came up to you cold and told you these stories you'd laugh and send them packing, but say they happened in the distant past and that gives it weight.

I mean gold plates and spectacles? Talking snakes and a god who must show his 'back parts' to people as he lacks the power to show his face without killing them? It's comedy gold until it becomes holy scripture.

Exactly you're right it's exactly what Joseph Smith did, he started off as a treasurer Hunter and that didn't go to well (as he was convicted of fraud) he moved onto religion.

He rebelled and anyone who rebels from orthodox religion is cast out. Its a warning to people to behave themselves and to conform.

Of course it is all allegorical but it's interesting.

If the garden of eden story is allegorical then jesus didn't need to die for our sins- there was no fall of man.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

He rebelled and anyone who rebels from orthodox religion is cast out. Its a warning to people to behave themselves and to conform.

Exactly. Normally we admire people who stand up to dictators.

@speakout

Of course it is all allegorical but it's interesting.

If the garden of eden story is allegorical then jesus didn't need to die for our sins- there was no fall of man.

Except that Genesis was written by Moses and is believed to be a poem, rather than a literal account of an historical event.

In fact, if you line up the order of creation against the order of evolution they match pretty well. So a pretty good metaphor - a story passed down through generations to convey a greater meaning - rather than allegory but certainly not a literal account.

So if we take it as a poetic account of evolution then no, there was no "original sin" but there was a point at which humans gained a conscience and an ethical/moral code. At that point we gained a choice to treat others well or treat others poorly and we've all made the latter decision more than we probably would have liked. That's why Jesus died - to forgive our actual wrongdoings, not the literal wrongdoings of some long dead first woman.

God made a world that functions for the majority of the people the majority of the time. If you're praying for a sunshiny wedding day there's a farmer somewhere praying for rain. It won't be perfect for all of us all the time because someone else needs something else. Creating a world that allows free will (that old chestnut) also needs to account for random chance and the ability to make poor decisions- therefore also needs to account for destruction and degradation (of trees and plants and living things)

I don't think there will ever be a fully satisfactory answer to "why do bad things happen to good people" because everyone wants to twist the answer to fit their own narrative and world view (Christians included) and that's why the concept of the devil/Satan springs up. We want someone else to blame for our mistakes and the more painful parts of life and humanity. He is mentioned in the Bible and his origins somewhat explained but not given anywhere near the airtime that popular culture makes out. He may well be real (I know people who claim to have dealt with demons etc) but I also thing he's a symbol for our own failings and perhaps a handy scapegoat for what we'd rather not take responsibility for.....

Stringypotatos

Genesis wasn't written by Moses.

None of the first books of the Old Testament ascribed to him were. Its obvious they weren't for a number of reasons:

1. His death is described in them.

1. They refer to him in the third person as the 'most humble man'. If he really was and he really wrote them, he would have described himself as such.

Most scholars attribute at least 4 different authors to the first books of the Old Testament. None of them were Moses.🙄

Seriously, if your going to talk sh**e about the Bible, at least know what you are talking about.

So the Gospel of John wasn't written by John either because he refers to himself in the third person and refers to himself as "The disciple that Jesus loved"?

I may have made a mistake but I wouldn't go so far as to say I was "talking shite"....

the Devil/Satan/Lucifer is a religious figure. He was an angel that fell from heaven and his overall goal seems to be to lead people to "bad" behaviour/choices

The old testament is the first 1st half of the bible which some christians use as the basis of their religious beliefs and I believe is the Jewish Torah. An old testament example of something he did was when he was sent by God to torment a fellow named Job (who I think is a descendent of Noah) so as to turn Job into someone who does "bad" behaviour as a way to deal with all the tragedy that comes into his life by the hand of the Devil. I think the Devil kills Job's family, burns his house down "And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power ...So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord ... The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them." I think that Job is considered a prophet by the Muslims (as is Jesus..)

The new testament is the second half of the bible and mostly focuses of Jesus. In the new testament, an example of something the devil did was suggest that Jesus break his religious fast by eating bread. "Jesus was ...tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

Some might argue that religion uses the devil as a scapegoat for "bad" behaviour. That is, if you have a friend Tom who you say convinces you to say do a bad behaviour, I later ask you "did you do the 'bad' behaviour" and you say, "yes, but Tom MADE ME do it." Some may argue that it is true that Tom may have influenced you, and you may have felt peer pressure to do it, ultimately you have individual responsibility and accountability to carry out the course of action you chose. Some may also argue that perhaps a "better" course of action is to try to convince your friend Tom back into what you perceive to be the "better" behaviour. The ongoing challenge is the murky water of what can be interpreted to be good or bad behaviour - it can be a bit subjective.

if one buys into the idea that the devil causes you to chose "bad" behaviour/choices, those individuals may also have very individual definitions of what the devil is/can be.

God and the Devil represent the good and bad that is in all of us. If we all embraced the good and treated our fellow humans with kindness, compassion and gentleness then there would be no evil. But temptation is everywhere, and leads us astray. Some more than others. It's a very simple concept, but simple doesn't mean easy. In our society we're not used to taking responsibility for ourselves and our actions. We all want the easy life. The world is in a bad way right now. And I'm not even conventionally religious! But I do think there are great powers, but they are within us, not external to us. We've just forgotten how to find them.

Let me shed some historical scholarly light on this subject (I'm a greco-roman pagan priestess with a classics degree).
Lucifer is Greek for 'light-bringer' and was used routinely for gods and goddesses: Apollo Lucifer, Diana Lucifera. It was a good epithet. Demon comes from the Greek daemon which means a minor deity which can be good or bad. There are household spirits, daemones which protect the home - a very good thing! So Christianity took these terms and gave them a negative meaning. But there is more!
The entire good god vs evil god comes directly from Zoroastrianism, which was dualist. There is the good supreme god Ahura Mazda who battles with the evil god Ahriman (Angra Mainyu). It's a cosmic battle which Ahura Mazda will win and mankind is supposed to take part in the battle on the side of good. Also the idea of a last judgement, the resurrection of the dead, and a world savior born of a virgin all come from this religion. When the ancient Jews were in exile in Babylon they were exposed to Zoroastrian beliefs and imported them. So ultimately the idea of Satan/Lucifer comes from Zoroastrianism via the Jews and then the Christians further had their interpretation. I hope this helps.

Looking at what's happening in Texas, the Satanists are looking like the good guys right now.

@Deletesystem33

Looking at what's happening in Texas, the Satanists are looking like the good guys right now.

Very much agree. Although I did look them up and they don't follow Satan or believe in him. They seem to the unsung religious heroes in that major mess! 2021 is a really bonkers year!