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Original poster

Transubstantiation

78 replies

Mmn654123 · 29/10/2020 07:46

I am a Catholic.

I do not believe that the communion wafer literally becomes the body of a Christ at the moment of transubstantiation.

Others believe it does.

I have no objections to their belief, but I do not share it.

AIBU in thinking this does not make me a bigot?

YABU - transubstantiation is real you bigot - you must believe, or your thinking is a literal religious hate crime

YANBU - live and let live - as long as nobody else is impacted by your beliefs

OP posts:
FangsForTheMemory · 29/10/2020 07:48

YABU for not putting this on the philosophy/religion forum.

MaskingForIt · 29/10/2020 07:49

I suspect only other —people who care about fairy stories— Catholics will care about this, and they’ll all be a right or wrong as each other.

If you’re happy and secure in your belief, why does it matter what other believe?

Sleepforever · 29/10/2020 07:52

How could this possibly make you a bigot? Nothing you have written here suggests intolerance to their point of view.... which is the definition of a bigot.

Magicbabywaves · 29/10/2020 07:52

Isn’t that belief the essence of Catholicism? There was a whole reformation about this!

rashalert · 29/10/2020 07:53

If you don't believe in the miracle of the Mass, it makes you not a Catholic!

That is one of, if not the, cornerstones of the faith and is the key difference between Catholic and Anglican faith.

Emeeno1 · 29/10/2020 07:54

What is frightening is that historically you could have been burnt at the stake for such heresy!

That is far and away the thing to be thinking about: that we have killed and still kill at the slightest provocation.

Tunnocks34 · 29/10/2020 07:54

Well my uncle was a priest and holy water came out of his kitchen sink, which he then said a little prayer over.

So that’s where holy water comes from

Tunnocks34 · 29/10/2020 07:55

And the communion wafer domes from a company that sell them.

I used to knick them all and eat them like biscuits when I was a kid and stuck in the church.

melisande99 · 29/10/2020 07:56

Grin I see what you did there

I fear it is lost on people and it's going to turn into another Catholic-bashing thread.

Toilenstripes · 29/10/2020 07:57

I think “bigot” might not be the word you should use in this context. Surely it’s “heretic”?

CecilyP · 29/10/2020 07:59

This is a very odd question for AIBU. Has something happened to spark you to ask it here?

SaskiaRembrandt · 29/10/2020 08:00

I don't think it's particularly unusual for Catholics not to believe transubstantiation in a literal sense, the same as people of other faiths often don't believe the tenets of those faiths are literally true.

But going on melisande99's post, you aren't literally asking for a discussion about religious doctrine, so as you were Grin

Katgolde · 29/10/2020 08:02
Confused
SebastianTheCrab · 29/10/2020 08:05

Well surely that makes you transphobic

Incidentally, when Boots was incorporated as a company it became a legal person. I don't believe a human called Boots suddenly emerged somewhere at Head Office and sits there directing operations. I accept it's a legal fiction. Perhaps that makes me a bigot too.

SpeccyLime · 29/10/2020 08:05

Has someone called you a bigot?

Believing what others believe is not a requirement for not being a bigot. Nobody in the world believes the fundamental truths of every single religion - it doesn’t make them all bigots.

If someone has accused you of bigotry for not believing in transubstantiation they’re just stirring up trouble (unless the truth is you expressed your views in a bigoted and derogatory way).

BrumBoo · 29/10/2020 08:06

I see what you're saying. Not sure it's making a point in a cause. Especially when it gets lost in translation. It will just turn into a 'MN is full of Catholic Bashers' thread, because belief cannot be questioned, even when it defies all logic.

berryfull · 29/10/2020 08:06

It’s obviously a thread about Gender Politics!

SpeccyLime · 29/10/2020 08:09

Oh Christ, is this just a back door into some cosy trans bashing?

No need to be so coy OP - if you want to denigrate trans people you’re in good company on mumsnet.

You are, of course, being unreasonable for hiding your tedious narrative behind a disingenuous facade but if you don’t care about trans rights I can’t imagine you’ll care about that.

Thank god for the ‘hide thread’ feature...

SquishySquirmy · 29/10/2020 08:09

I dunno.
If I do believe in transubstantiation, then it is a bit cruel of you to say it's not real.
Deeply, deeply hurtful actually.
What if it was a deeply held belief, an integral part of myself? Why are you denying my very existence?
Wafers and wine contain organic compounds. Flesh and blood contain organic compounds. So it is all the same stuff really, according to science.
Listen to the science!
And be kind!

CaMePlaitPas · 29/10/2020 08:09

I would research other religions and practices with Christianity OP. As has been said this is a pretty fundamental belief of Catholism and if you don't share it I don't think you are a Catholic.

Milssofadoesntreallyfit · 29/10/2020 08:10

I think this is a pretty important part of being catholic, have you looked in to other christian denominations to see if another one is closer to your values?

SebastianTheCrab · 29/10/2020 08:10

@BrumBoo

I see what you're saying. Not sure it's making a point in a cause. Especially when it gets lost in translation. It will just turn into a 'MN is full of Catholic Bashers' thread, because belief cannot be questioned, even when it defies all logic.

Beliefs can absolutely be questioned. There are entire schools of academia devoted to questioning beliefs. It's how most sciences function. Richard Dawkins is a famous societal figure it's a best-selling book about atheism rather than locked in a dungeon somewhere.

TwoLeftSocksWithHoles · 29/10/2020 08:10

I feel the difficulty is no one can make you believe something. It is like falling in love or a favorite colour. You don't control these things.

Probably best you don't dwell on the 'Immaculate Conception' either.

@tunnocks34
Holy water always was ordinary water - it was the blessing that made it holy. I think they also added a bit of salt (and I would guess that came out the salt cellar on the table)

BlackRibboner · 29/10/2020 08:14

Oh I see, this is a transgender thread. YABU for trying to make that analogy - bits of wafer and wine are not people Hmm

As to whether you're unreasonable to think people can't change sex, I don't think you are. You might be if you treat anyone differently on the basis of that belief, or try to deny the experience of trans people (that they feel very strongly they have the wrong biological sex).

We should surely be able to have a conversation about safeguarding and safe spaces without having to constantly refer to transpeople as their birth gender - this is where the accusations of transphobia on this site comes from, because every thread gets dominated by people saying you can't change see. Maybe not, but some people would like to or try to and how can we accommodate that while also retaining appropriate safeguarding protocols?

LittleBearPad · 29/10/2020 08:14

Things don’t magically turn into other things due to belief whether that’s water into wine, men into women, whatever...