Transubstantiation

[Mmn654123]

I am a Catholic.

I do not believe that the communion wafer literally becomes the body of a Christ at the moment of transubstantiation.

Others believe it does.

I have no objections to their belief, but I do not share it.

AIBU in thinking this does not make me a bigot?

YABU - transubstantiation is real you bigot - you must believe, or your thinking is a literal religious hate crime

YANBU - live and let live - as long as nobody else is impacted by your beliefs

If this is a genuine question, then more modern Catholic doctrine accepts the symbolism of transubstantiation. (I'm in Italy and teach Catholic priests and priests in training- lots of interesting conversations)

If this is a transgender argument in an invisibilty cloak that fact I guess won't fit the OP's narrative.

I'm not Catholic. I'm gender critical.

@SpeccyLime

Oh Christ, is this just a back door into some cosy trans bashing?

No need to be so coy OP - if you want to denigrate trans people you’re in good company on mumsnet.

You are, of course, being unreasonable for hiding your tedious narrative behind a disingenuous facade but if you don’t care about trans rights I can’t imagine you’ll care about that.

Thank god for the ‘hide thread’ feature...

This.

I'm a Christian. I doubt all sorts of specific doctrines, and am well disposed toward various heresies. I'm still a Christian.

Luckily we no longer burn people at the stake for having a different understanding of how things work.

We still have ways of making them suffer, however!

People demanding tolerance can be very intolerant at times.

Same here, always struggled with that part of the faith and always took it to be symbolic rather than literal.

@SebastianTheCrab, not all beliefs can be questioned. Some parts of society will turn you into a pariah if you dare question their belief system. It is far more important to show kindness to any belief, regardless of how silly or even dangerous they are, than question if they have any tangible base to them.

Actually, I will make a couple of other points.

Catholicism isn't the only faith that teaches the idea of transubstantiation, it's also a thing in the eastern Orthodox church, and it's been debated within some Protestant sects too.

Secondly, Catholics don't believe the host and the wine literally turn into flesh and blood, the idea is that the sacrament is imbued with the spirit of Christ. So, if you're trying to use this as an argument about trans people, I dont think it works.

@SpeccyLime

Has someone called you a bigot?

Believing what others believe is not a requirement for not being a bigot. Nobody in the world believes the fundamental truths of every single religion - it doesn’t make them all bigots.

If someone has accused you of bigotry for not believing in transubstantiation they’re just stirring up trouble (unless the truth is you expressed your views in a bigoted and derogatory way).

They have but only coincidentally.

Didn’t realise there was a religious forum - apologies.

I’m a bad Catholic, I accept that. However I was discussing this in the context of transgenderism and a better Catholic than I am insisted I am bigoted on both counts - I’m not believing in transubstantiation in either context.

But I wanted to see if in the context of Catholicism others think my view is bigoted. I don’t.

And if it isn’t in the context of Catholicism, how is it in the context of transgenderism.

But I would like views on the Catholicism element as all logic and reason have departed when talking about transgenderism!

@SaskiaRembrandt

Actually, I will make a couple of other points.

Catholicism isn't the only faith that teaches the idea of transubstantiation, it's also a thing in the eastern Orthodox church, and it's been debated within some Protestant sects too.

Secondly, Catholics don't believe the host and the wine literally turn into flesh and blood, the idea is that the sacrament is imbued with the spirit of Christ. So, if you're trying to use this as an argument about trans people, I dont think it works.

It was the other way around. I was using trans people to support my debate about religion and was told I am bigoted on both counts!! Lol!!

If you don’t believe this, your beliefs are not consistent with Catholic doctrine. You bigoty bigot, you.

You identify as a Catholic. You don't believe in transubstantiation, which many believe is a key feature in someone being a Catholic, but you identify as Catholic nonetheless.

I would say anyone who refuses you the right to identify as a Catholic and live as a Catholic (including accessing church buildings which are safe spaces for Catholics) is indeed a bigot.

But that view doesn't support your narrative does it OP.

MindyStClaire

That’s not actually how it works. A Catholic is a Catholic, whether they believe in TS or not. It’s something you become by baptism, not by faith. A practising Catholic is a different thing.

The theology behind the concept of transubstantiation is inpenetrable at best (angels dancing on a pinhead anyone?) and of course was developed and codified by humans long before modern science reared its ugly head.
I think a more important question is that if you believe in an omniscient, omnipresent being, and you believe that that being is 'good'; is it really likely that you'd be damned by that being for struggling with transubstantiation v. consubstantiation v. simple tokenism?

@flaviaritt

MindyStClaire

That’s not actually how it works. A Catholic is a Catholic, whether they believe in TS or not. It’s something you become by baptism, not by faith. A practising Catholic is a different thing.

Yes - despite not having been to church for about 150 years, and living a life that is as non-Catholic as you could get, as far as the Church is concerned I was baptised, therefore, I am still a Catholic, just a very bad one. But they also believe I can be redeemed, which is quite nice, I like the idea that there are a bunch of people who will not give up on me no matter what I do.

Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think faith is a great analogy for gender.

It's not something physical or scientific but nonetheless something central to many of our identities.

Catholics (or Muslims, Protestants, Jews, take your pick) can be raised as such from birth, or choose to convert at an older age. I was raised as a Catholic but now identify as an atheist.

Discriminating against someone because of their declared faith is not just a shitty thing to do, it's illegal as faith is a protected characteristic.

Thanks OP, I've found this really helpful.

Signed, an atheist, trans including feminist.

I like the idea that there are a bunch of people who will not give up on me no matter what I do.

is it really likely that you'd be damned by that being for struggling with transubstantiation v. consubstantiation v. simple tokenism?

I think once we have accepted the existence of an omnipotent and omniscient God, we have to accept that we don’t know what the heck He would do or not do.

So I'm studying the early modern period at the moment for my degree, specifically the reformation and the beliefs of the actual people.

There is little suggestion that people actually, literally believed in transubstantiaition even in the 1500's. Not to say they all didn't, but my understanding is that the difference between Catholic and Protestant beliefs centre around Catholics believing that the receiving of the sacraments was integral to eternal salvation, whereas Luther asserted that faith alone would grant salvation.

So, the key is the practice of mass, and believing in its significance. That doesn't actually automatically translate to having to literally believe the concept of transubstantiaition, just that it is, whether literal or symbolic, reception of the sacrament.

Transubstantiation is fascinating. A large organisation encouraging people to pretend to be cannibals. And everyone is just ok with this.

@MindyStClaire

Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think faith is a great analogy for gender.

It's not something physical or scientific but nonetheless something central to many of our identities.

Catholics (or Muslims, Protestants, Jews, take your pick) can be raised as such from birth, or choose to convert at an older age. I was raised as a Catholic but now identify as an atheist.

Discriminating against someone because of their declared faith is not just a shitty thing to do, it's illegal as faith is a protected characteristic.

Thanks OP, I've found this really helpful.

Signed, an atheist, trans including feminist.

@mindystclaire

As I said on another thread, gender is a new aged religion. A fundamental one at that. As with all religions, it does the most damage to girls and women, strips away their rights in the name of a belief system that cannot be proved and defies all science and logic.

You should never discriminate against anyone for their personal beliefs. You can point out how their beliefs are a problem though, how they negatively affect others. That's not discrimination, it is being factual.

@MindyStClaire

You identify as a Catholic. You don't believe in transubstantiation, which many believe is a key feature in someone being a Catholic, but you identify as Catholic nonetheless.

I would say anyone who refuses you the right to identify as a Catholic and live as a Catholic (including accessing church buildings which are safe spaces for Catholics) is indeed a bigot.

But that view doesn't support your narrative does it OP.

Oh, this is an interesting thought experiment.

What about if the person identified as a Catholic, but didn't believe in the Pope as being God's representative on Earth? What if they then decided that, as a consequence of their privileged birth (benefitting from wealth, historical power and influence over others, etc), they were actually God's representative, and as such, they were the true arbiter of who was following God's word and would use their considerable power and influence to enforce their ideology upon everybody else?

And then they and other people who also believed the Pope wasn't God's representative but was actually working for Satan - and some who saw that this was a quick way to gaining advantage decided to police Catholics for not thinking right? To demand that they publicly renounce their beliefs on pain of annihilation? To take away their livelihoods, their freedom of thought, even their lives because the very thought of somebody saying 'Well, that person is NOT the one who has a hotline to the Almighty. They can believe whatever they want and I'm not going to say it to them, but they are NOT anything but mistaken' is taken as literal violence?

What if they then decided that the only way to maintain their identity as the only true representative of God on Earth was to destroy the safe spaces for women and men who just wished to live peacefully amongst others women or men, change the laws so any pesky Catholics aren't allowed to worship as they see fit, to behave as they see fit or even have Mass performed by their priests in accordance with their beliefs?

Then the priests were replaced by people who subscribed to the new belief. To the Catholics already living in the area, these new people aren't priests. They're not recognised by the Holy See or Vatican. They can't provide reconciliation. They can't provide the Last Rites, Baptism or marriage ceremonies. Well, they ostensibly could in that they could wear the clothing, say the words (with the inconveniently Catholic bits taken out and a few bits rewritten to erase the existence or reduce the significance of the Saints and Mary, plus a few more writings that suit their purpose), but there wouldn't be any spiritual meaning or consequence in them as they don't have the inherent characteristics of being an actual Catholic priest.

Now, repeat that in more than one place with more than one person in a position of considerable strength. With others who will spread the word, police and enforce this, watching, listening, informing upon people who have dissented from the New Truth, upon people who have paid lip service to the new rules but privately hold Catholic Mass in their own homes, hidden away where nobody else could see, upon people who have said 'So, what is it that he is getting out of this?'

And that is how you get Henry VIII, Martin Luther and a whole load of innocent Catholics being persecuted for centuries.

What the fuck is wrong with mumsnet even a thread about a single religious practice can't prevent turning into a trans debate!!

@CloudyVanilla

What the fuck is wrong with mumsnet even a thread about a single religious practice can't prevent turning into a trans debate!!

Perhaps if you had read the thread properly, you'd have noticed the OP posting It was the other way around. I was using trans people to support my debate about religion and was told I am bigoted on both counts!! Lol!!

If you are a Catholic, you cannot be monarch of this country-I think this is the only religion singled out in this way.

@MindyStClaire

You identify as a Catholic. You don't believe in transubstantiation, which many believe is a key feature in someone being a Catholic, but you identify as Catholic nonetheless.

I would say anyone who refuses you the right to identify as a Catholic and live as a Catholic (including accessing church buildings which are safe spaces for Catholics) is indeed a bigot.

But that view doesn't support your narrative does it OP.

It neither supports it or doesn’t support it.

Someone make a good point about the idea of whether transubstantiation is meant to be literal or just imbued with the spirit of Christ. I’ve always believed it to be imbued. Like some men believe they are inbued with the spirit or womanliness I guess.

Of course all churches are open to all people so that’s a key difference - they want anyone to attend regardless of faith so they can indoctrinate the non believers. So it’s a bit different to sex segregation.

@MindyStClaire

Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think faith is a great analogy for gender.

It's not something physical or scientific but nonetheless something central to many of our identities.

Catholics (or Muslims, Protestants, Jews, take your pick) can be raised as such from birth, or choose to convert at an older age. I was raised as a Catholic but now identify as an atheist.

Discriminating against someone because of their declared faith is not just a shitty thing to do, it's illegal as faith is a protected characteristic.

Thanks OP, I've found this really helpful.

Signed, an atheist, trans including feminist.

And yet, not one of the Catholics, Muslims, Sikhs, atheists, that I know demands that I follow their belief system and live my life according to their rules.