Transubstantiation

[Mmn654123]

I am a Catholic.

I do not believe that the communion wafer literally becomes the body of a Christ at the moment of transubstantiation.

Others believe it does.

I have no objections to their belief, but I do not share it.

AIBU in thinking this does not make me a bigot?

YABU - transubstantiation is real you bigot - you must believe, or your thinking is a literal religious hate crime

YANBU - live and let live - as long as nobody else is impacted by your beliefs

@PikesPeaked
But historically that isn’t true - we live in a more tolerant time in some parts of the world but there are plenty of places where you would feel very uncomfortable living if you didn’t share the local faith and plenty of times in history when the law of the land would have punished you.

So I do think very relevant to the thinking about trans issues and vice versa.

@Sleepforever

How could this possibly make you a bigot? Nothing you have written here suggests intolerance to their point of view.... which is the definition of a bigot.

I agree and I brought trans issues into the discussion I was having to prove that point! Instead I’m apparently a TERF and a heretic.

Not to drip feed but I was debating with someone a bit bonkers, in the nicest possible way! But it got me thinking......

@rashalert

If you don't believe in the miracle of the Mass, it makes you not a Catholic!

That is one of, if not the, cornerstones of the faith and is the key difference between Catholic and Anglican faith.

Is it? I was taught that some believe in trans whatsit but that not all do. As I said I’ve never been a very good Catholic....!

@melisande99

I see what you did there

I fear it is lost on people and it's going to turn into another Catholic-bashing thread.

Ta - no catholic bashing here - other faiths have odd beliefs too - live and let live and all that!

@Toilenstripes

I think “bigot” might not be the word you should use in this context. Surely it’s “heretic”?

Possibly so.....

@SpeccyLime

Oh Christ, is this just a back door into some cosy trans bashing?

No need to be so coy OP - if you want to denigrate trans people you’re in good company on mumsnet.

You are, of course, being unreasonable for hiding your tedious narrative behind a disingenuous facade but if you don’t care about trans rights I can’t imagine you’ll care about that.

Thank god for the ‘hide thread’ feature...

Other way around but the faith based belief system for something not provable resonated - hence wanting to see if the reasoning follows and if not, why not....

@SquishySquirmy

I dunno. If I do believe in transubstantiation, then it is a bit cruel of you to say it's not real. Deeply, deeply hurtful actually. What if it was a deeply held belief, an integral part of myself? Why are you denying my very existence? Wafers and wine contain organic compounds. Flesh and blood contain organic compounds. So it is all the same stuff really, according to science. Listen to the science! And be kind!

Quite......

And it’s the existence denying where it falls down. It’s not denying existence to disagree, surely?

@BlackRibboner

Oh I see, this is a transgender thread. YABU for trying to make that analogy - bits of wafer and wine are not people

As to whether you're unreasonable to think people can't change sex, I don't think you are. You might be if you treat anyone differently on the basis of that belief, or try to deny the experience of trans people (that they feel very strongly they have the wrong biological sex).

We should surely be able to have a conversation about safeguarding and safe spaces without having to constantly refer to transpeople as their birth gender - this is where the accusations of transphobia on this site comes from, because every thread gets dominated by people saying you can't change see. Maybe not, but some people would like to or try to and how can we accommodate that while also retaining appropriate safeguarding protocols?

I agree - progress won’t be made while discussion is shot down. That’s why sometimes analogies do help.

For me it’s clear that we must be able to record birth sex and gender and I don’t know why both can’t be documented for official records. And why can’t we specify what is available for women and trans men or women and trans women, so it’s clear. Rather than changing to ‘people who x or y or z’

But then there are always tolerant religious people who accept different and zealots who will murder for disagreement with their views.

I agree, Mmn654123, particularly as I am Jewish. The comparison, though, between the treatment of religious beliefs and the treatment of trans beliefs is appropriate.

Emancipation is achieved when the dominant group recognises their shared humanity with the suppressed group, that they can live side-by-side, accepting that they have different views without imposing their views or practices upon each other.

Emancipation is not achieved by violence and aggression, by imposing views upon people and demanding that they convert.

@PikesPeaked

I agree, Mmn654123, particularly as I am Jewish. The comparison, though, between the treatment of religious beliefs and the treatment of trans beliefs is appropriate.

Emancipation is achieved when the dominant group recognises their shared humanity with the suppressed group, that they can live side-by-side, accepting that they have different views without imposing their views or practices upon each other.

Emancipation is not achieved by violence and aggression, by imposing views upon people and demanding that they convert.

Absolutely - the big challenge with the trans v women’s rights issue is what both perceive that they are being suppressed by a dominant group - so women feel that the solutions being presented to support specifically trans women increase the risk to and oppression of women by men whereas the trans activists perceive the women to be the dominant group oppressing vulnerable trans women.

And so of course beliefs about whether the transgender equivalent of transubstantiation is ‘real’ becomes there focus when in fact it doesn’t actually matter any more than whether I believe in the wafers and wine - but it’s like the trans activists think if women can be forced to believe then objections about sex based rights will go away when in fact that just isn’t true because all women will never believe that. So the concerns women have about sex based protections do need to be addressed and not simply by shouting louder and louder that trans women are women!!! But how to avoid hurt feelings is another matter.

@ainsisoisje

Same here, always struggled with that part of the faith and always took it to be symbolic rather than literal.

I was an adult before I realised you were meant to actually believe it. I thought it was meant to be symbolic. I expect it was explained to me as a child but I re-wrote it into something that seemed more rational to me and then thought no more of it.

But as I said I’ve never been a brilliant Catholic!

You're probably a fairly decent Catholic if you actually think about things like this this deeply! I've no answers about transubstantiation, fairly certain I was told in school that if you didn't believe in it, you automatically turned into martin Luther or something 😂 I doubt that's true though. Faith is always a work in progress at the end of the day

@MindyStClaire

Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think faith is a great analogy for gender.

It's not something physical or scientific but nonetheless something central to many of our identities.

Catholics (or Muslims, Protestants, Jews, take your pick) can be raised as such from birth, or choose to convert at an older age. I was raised as a Catholic but now identify as an atheist.

Discriminating against someone because of their declared faith is not just a shitty thing to do, it's illegal as faith is a protected characteristic.

Thanks OP, I've found this really helpful.

Signed, an atheist, trans including feminist.

Glad to help!

The current situation about identity fits very closely with faith in my view as well.

It’s right and proper that anyone can believe what they like about themselves. Faith is a personal thing and people must be allowed to believe what they like in peace.

And as long as people’s faith based beliefs aren’t imposed by force onto anyone else, we will all live in harmony.

The issue remains how to avoid the beliefs of the trans lobby being forced onto women who wish to retain their existing legal protections, given those women don’t share the faith.

@flaviaritt

I like the idea that there are a bunch of people who will not give up on me no matter what I do.

Hahaha!

My aunt has baptised a whole bunch of the non-catholic extended family apparently, without them having any idea - ‘just in case they die’. It makes her happy.

@flaviaritt

If you don’t believe this, your beliefs are not consistent with Catholic doctrine. You bigoty bigot, you.

Damn!

hangs head in shame

@MitziK

Very interesting thought experiment indeed!

Hope folk have views on that.....

@CloudyVanilla

So I'm studying the early modern period at the moment for my degree, specifically the reformation and the beliefs of the actual people.

There is little suggestion that people actually, literally believed in transubstantiaition even in the 1500's. Not to say they all didn't, but my understanding is that the difference between Catholic and Protestant beliefs centre around Catholics believing that the receiving of the sacraments was integral to eternal salvation, whereas Luther asserted that faith alone would grant salvation.

So, the key is the practice of mass, and believing in its significance. That doesn't actually automatically translate to having to literally believe the concept of transubstantiaition, just that it is, whether literal or symbolic, reception of the sacrament.

Oh good that’s made me feel better! I didn’t think I had to believe in TS and I remember being very surprised when I first talked to someone who literally did believe it.....

@dontwantamirena

Transubstantiation is fascinating. A large organisation encouraging people to pretend to be cannibals. And everyone is just ok with this.

Lol! I can’t resist.

“Transgenderism is fascinating. A large organisation encouraging men to pretend to be lesbians. And everyone is just ok with this.”

@CloudyVanilla

What the fuck is wrong with mumsnet even a thread about a single religious practice can't prevent turning into a trans debate!!

Yes I started having a real life religious discussion but I’m the one who brought transgenderism into it as a comparison to show I wasn’t a religious bigot - instead I was told I was just doubly bigoted!!

@rashalert

If you are a Catholic, you cannot be monarch of this country-I think this is the only religion singled out in this way.

Damn - my cunning plan is thwarted! No Queen MMN......

@allhappeningatonce

You're probably a fairly decent Catholic if you actually think about things like this this deeply! I've no answers about transubstantiation, fairly certain I was told in school that if you didn't believe in it, you automatically turned into martin Luther or something 😂 I doubt that's true though. Faith is always a work in progress at the end of the day

Lol! There are no Catholic’s who are good enough - the concept of being good enough goes against the natural state of guilt and self flagellation!

What an odd conversation between you and the person who called you a bigot

The catholic church teaches a literal understanding of transubstanation... so I guess technically you're a heretic? But in real life, people identify as whatever religion they want, even if their beliefs don't match up to the teachings (and you say you're a bad catholic anyway, so why do you care?).

On the other hand, the Vatican has previously made it clear that they don't support a person's right to identity as a gender other than the one assigned at birth (unless this has recently changed?). So i guess your friend can join you in being a bad catholic if she is using the doctrine to support being transgender. Or perhaps she's a bad trans ally for arguing a literal following of Catholicism?

Either way, the whole debate sounds bizarre.

@Milkshake7489

Not really - a very old friend and when we catch up we always end up in bizarre discussions! We weren’t debating transgenderism at all - the discussion was about Catholicism and I was using transgender beliefs to support the point I was making (thinking that would show I was being very rational) but it backfired!

But it left me wondering if others believed that not agreeing with religious faith based beliefs is the same as not believing in what I would consider equally irrational societal beliefs.

Hence starting the thread with the religious question to see what the response would be.

Friend has no particular position on transgenderism so was taking a position as we talked. No axe to grind as far as I know.

I do consider myself to be Catholic and my faith is important to me, albeit I’m aware that some more devout Catholics would frown at my lack of ‘properm faith/devotion. But that doesn’t bother me.

Friend wasn’t being horrible - she just believes in literal transubstantiation and thinks anyone who doesn’t accept it as a reality is a bigot. She also believes you can be born in the ‘wrong body’ regardless of Vatican views.

But you’re right our discussions are usually pretty bizarre. We catch up infrequently and seem to manage to discuss weird things. Saw her last pre-lockdown before this recent catchup and we ended up talking for two hours primarily about Dr Who. Some friendships are like that I guess.......

My aunt has baptised a whole bunch of the non-catholic extended family apparently, without them having any idea - ‘just in case they die’. It makes her happy.

Can she do that? I thought the baptisee (?) had to be present.

@SaskiaRembrandt

My aunt has baptised a whole bunch of the non-catholic extended family apparently, without them having any idea - ‘just in case they die’. It makes her happy.

Can she do that? I thought the baptisee (?) had to be present.

The baptisees were present - it only takes a few drops of water and a quick prayer - those she has baptised (adult and children) have no idea they are now Catholics........

One extended relative-in-law was raised as a non-catholic but lives overseas so they have never met. She sent her a gift of holy water - which apparently means she is also now Catholic because she accepted the gift.

Or so I’m told!