Why has God allowed religion to be so tribal?

[Jason118]

There is so much solid teachings in religious dogma and so many warm and kind people who practice. Why has it all come to this, or was it ever thus?

Religion is people led. It’s down to men dictating about people should behave. It’s just another form of abuse and control.

As humans we are tribal. We seek out people who are like us, and do that even without recourse to religion. Religion can be seen as nothing more than a basis for tribalism: just maybe, though, it could be the means of a more positive and inclusive collectivism? I don't know, but maybe that was God's intention, for Christianity at least - a community not based on nationalism, ethnic identity or family ties, open to anyone to join.

Whether that is the reality is another question entirely.

God!? It's the human ego that's done that.

Whether you believe in God or not, surely you can see that doctrinal, prescriptive religions are about control?

All organised, doctrinal religions will inevitably splinter because new people come along wanting to do things in their way/show preference to their group etc.

Why does God allow it to happen? That's a deep question, I'd take it as (more) evidence that whole thing is a load of nonsense personally, but that's just me...

It was more the 'why has God allowed this to happen angle' I was interested in views on. If it's something so important and not a man made construct, why allow it to be so fragmented by people's actions, why not do something to put it right?

Jason118

I think you know the answer.

Jesus wasn't a Christian,
Mohamed wasn't a Muslim.
Buddha wasn't a Buddhist,
Lao Tzu wasn't a Taoist,

It's divide and rule, innit.

I know 'an' answer, but is it 'the' answer?

You’re slightly missing the point. God gave all humans free will, to respond to Him or worship Him in whatever way they want. Or to ignore Him, in the case of atheists.
Sadly, many (usually male) humans have used religion as an excuse to develop a power base to dominate people or accumulate wealth, distorting the original message in the process.
Christ only gave us 2 commandments: to love God and love our fellow humans. That’s been twisted by vested interests over the centuries to try and justify horrendous cruelty such as the Inquisition, burning witches and heretics to death, banning contraception, stigmatising gays, etc, and piling up vast fortunes and art treasures while people starve in poverty. Not to mention starting wars over silly details of theology, between people who actually worship the same God - eg the Crusades against Muslims, or the persecution of Jews. It must make God weep to see the mess we humans make of the world.

Babdoc

Aaaah the old 'free will' argument. God's 'Get out of jail free card' for the last 2500 years.

It's not a get out of jail free card, it's the way (we believe) it is.

Innit sure what the alternatives are. Should God have controlled our minds so we all believe in the same thing, or perhaps he should have struck down those who didn't follow the right path? Neither of those tie in with the God I believe in.

Chicken

I'm assuming you are a Christian, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The free will argument that Christians produce seems to hinge on the idea that God wouldn't want to control us. Why not exactly? Seems an obvious question? Why is it so important to God that we have the ability to commit sins?

Particularly as he created man and women as innocents, without sin. He was then so angry about us gaining the knowledge of sin that he cast us out. The so called 'original sin'

If God created us without sin, then we obviously didn't have free will at one point. Why is it so critical to him that we have it now?

I don't know the official answer to your question or indeed if there is one.

My thoughts on it are that if I was to create an entire race of people and had the choice to give them free will or not, it would be far more rewarding to have the people choose to love me than force them to.

Chicken

Hmmm. But we are forced to love God, on pain of an eternity in Hell if we exercise our 'free will' not to.

Anyhooo....

Jason118

The logical answer is that there is no God. 'God' doesn't 'allow' anything to happen, because he doesn't exist.

You aren't forced though, plenty of people think it's nonsense and don't worry about the threat of hell, etc. That's your free will.

If I were tempted to have faith in a god, it would never be a god so narcissistic that our salvation depends on our ability to worship him in spite of all the meaningless tragedy he allows.

This god reminds me of Trump on the 4 Jan 2016 - "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters".

Chicken

You aren't forced though, plenty of people think it's nonsense and don't worry about the threat of hell, etc. That's your free will

I'll tell that to the people who live in North Korea. They will be happy to learn that they don't actually live in a state of horrible duress. They can choose to rebel against the government any time they like. (it just means they will be imprisoned and tortured for the rest of their lives)

Great stuff, turns out they are actually completely free.

I don't think that is how Christianity works. A good person who has led a good life is not automatically barred from entering heaven. I'm no theologian though.

I don't want to argue with anyone and I certainly don't want to subject myself to a lot of the nasty, belittling comments that end up coming out in threads like these.

I believe what I believe and you believe what you do. I am respectful of that.

I'm not sure that your analogy particularly works in relation to what I've said but i agree, it's horrific what the people of North Korea have to live through.

Chicken

Fair enough. One thing though...

I don't think that is how Christianity works. A good person who has led a good life is not automatically barred from entering heaven. I'm no theologian though

Might want to check that. You may get a nasty surprise.

I've spoken to several priests about it during my adult confirmation course and the consensus was that people.of other and no faith are not automatically barred from heaven but that it is more difficult for them.

Chicken

It was nice of them to say that. You might want to check what the church actually says on the matter.

The Pope said something similar to a little boy not so long ago and got slapped down hard by the rest of the Catholic Church because of it.

That position is a sop to get people to become Christians.

'look we aren't unreasonable at all'

There you go with the belittling....

I remember when I used to go to church our old Vicar saying very clearly that "there is no way to get to heaven & eternal life except through being born again in Jesus Christ".

You can be the best person in the world but if you aren't a believing born again Christian then you arent going to heaven.

That's the c of e position.

I'm clearly going to hell!