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Philosophy/religion

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Why has God allowed religion to be so tribal?

430 replies

Jason118 · 30/04/2018 23:01

There is so much solid teachings in religious dogma and so many warm and kind people who practice. Why has it all come to this, or was it ever thus?

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missfattyfatty · 15/06/2018 07:08

I think people join religions as much as for social benefits as for religious belief. As a Muslim I have to admit to that. Because religions as actually far more like trade unions than tribes: the latter is based on ties of kinship whereas the former are based on common purpose.

Think about it. With their vying for members, each claiming to be the best at serving your needs/rights, each having different responsibilities to Co members, some having common liability all for one one for all, some not, some requiring obedience to powerful leadership figures, some not, some more accommodating to establishment than others, some less, eg BMA vs RMT, many doing outreach work outside of their trade union but largely their activities and advocacy is for the benefit of their own members. And likewise people fall in rank and file because the benefits of membership outweigh the negatives, eg going on strike when you would just like to go into work because you have to support the purpose of the union, paying in membership fees, etc. In exchange you get the help and advice of your trade union rep, sometimes they tell you you have a case other times they say buck up, you get membership benefits, burial fund, insurance, subsidised holiday homes.

And atheists are like people who don’t want to join a trade union for any or all of those reasons, like colleagues who don’t join a union because they want to go it alone, don’t want to be beholden to a group, don’t want to strike when they’ve don’t see the point of it, don’t want to pay in, etc. But they still largely benefit from the rights that trade unions fought for, (even though their power, like the church, is waning now). And people don’t see the point as much because we already have the employment and legal rights established in law no need for trade unions anymore. but in some parts of the world, trade union membership is still crucial to get on and not be abused in the workplace, just as religious membership is subscribed to for those same reasons also. For the protection of a group that is not related to you by blood but has a mutual stake with you.

MyTeapot · 15/06/2018 07:21

missfattyfatty - I'm atheist. What that means is simply that I don't have a belief in any gods. I'm not weighing up my options about deciding whether or not to join a religion. I'd quite like to join a church for the community part, but I don't get all the religious ideas that come with it.

If someone said to me "come and join this social club - we meet up regularly and look after each other and do charity work" that'd be lovely. In fact I get those things from other spheres in my life as do many people. I volunteer, I socialise, I help out my neighbours... I contribute and I get support back too, without anyone worrying about what flavour of deity I prefer.

I completely get your point though, people like to group together. I just wanted to address a common misconception that atheists reject "god". They just happen to not be able to believe it exists, and are therefore automatically out when it comes to having a religion. It's a conscious choice to join or accept membership of a church, but I can't control what I think is actually real.

missfattyfatty · 15/06/2018 09:21

dear teapot in my post I wanted to talk about other motivations of religion than belief in God/Gods. Id hoped my saying ‘social benefits as much as religious belief’ i was addressing the non religious or even atheist believer who nevertheless takes part in the religious rituals and activities because of the social aspects rather than the theology of a group.

there are many cultural Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc who don’t properly believe but are in the faith because they see the benefits of the social cohesiveness. Those remaining Jewish, Sikh, Buddhist ... or becoming etc because they see parts of it that function well and make sense and so they sign on and stick to the parts they don’t quite get/understand/not bothered by. Like someone joining a trade union without knowing the history, the principles, the differences etc ‘but hey, they do well by their members!’.

I was likening atheists to this demographic group of religious members in every religion that go through the motions and genuflections etc because it gets them into good schools (Christian) or access to interest free loans (Muslims) etc.

Sure principled atheists like yourself teapot will say ‘no if I don’t believe I can’t pretend all that’ but some types have a more fluid take on this subject. And certainly Someone can get and build just as much social cohesion in their community by the activities you do without the need to join a group, just as my colleague on my left has assurance of handling her own issues without need of joining the union as I have done, but there is safety in numbers. And mutual coming together and cooperation is more organised and focused in a religious group setting than between individuals coming together just as workers rights are more held up by the power of a union backing than an individual having to find their own employment lawyer and the like on their own.

Just putting different ideas out there btw. Thanks for engaging.

MyTeapot · 15/06/2018 10:01

missfattyfatty - thanks for expanding on that. It makes absolute sense, and I think you're correct.

I hope I didn't come across badly; I'm nice in real life! Grin

headinhands · 15/06/2018 10:05

but you are atheists so why are you even investing the time to argue this out? What does it matter to you?

Because it's interesting. The same way as I love to read and learn about the Mayans but am not Mayan.

Also some atheists are ex Christians and talking to others can help them understand their own journey in and out of a religion.

But it's also because we secretly believe in god but hate him and want everyone else to hate him too. Grin

headinhands · 15/06/2018 10:08

The concept of free will is used by Christians to explain moral evil but it certainly does not explain natural evil.

It doesn't even explain moral evil though. Gods allowed to stand by a watch someone rape a child in order to protect their free will. If I stood by and did nothing I'd be considered complicit. Why am I held more accountable for others actions than god??

headinhands · 15/06/2018 10:11

Well first born son, doesn't necessarily mean a baby- it could be an adult-

So imagine the UK are at war with France and they decide to order our troops to kill the first born son of every French family, and add that it's okay because most of them will be adults? Confused

headinhands · 15/06/2018 10:12

That's actually terrorism. The god of the OT was a terrorist.

headinhands · 15/06/2018 10:13

Also I believe that God 'hardened the heart' of Pharoah specifically so he wouldn't listen to the Israelites pleas. Was that moral of him?

Didn't that override the Pharaoh's free will?

MyTeapot · 15/06/2018 10:27

But it's also because we secretly believe in god but hate him and want everyone else to hate him too. Grin

Exactly this. A lot of folk mix up A-theism with ANTI-theism. As an atheist, I don't hate god, I don't ignore god and I don't "turn away from god" anymore than I hate/ignore/reject the gruffalo.

Atheism is a crap word because it tries to define someone with reference to something that they don't think exists. It's a double negative knot! Confused

I'm only an atheist when there's a theist in the room. Otherwise, gods and theism are simply not a feature of my life. In fact I've only recently started to take notice of religion since my children have been at school. I've got an 8 year old who doesn't think about it all... and a 6 year old wannabe Richard Dawkins who drives me crackers! Grin This sparks my interest in these conversations.

Gaspodethetalkingdog · 15/06/2018 10:44

Because there is no god/gods it is used by men - who wrote all the stuff in the first place to control others - generally women - see burkas ....

headinhands · 15/06/2018 10:49

I don't hate god, I don't ignore god and I don't "turn away from god" anymore than I hate/ignore/reject the gruffalo.

I'm an ex Christian so can remember the hushed tones used when atheists were spoken about. I guess the narrative of ignoring comes from the 'god shaped hole' that come Christians talk about. It's uncomfortable to imagine someone's just not needing a god, specifically your god.

A theist will alway assume you're wilfully ignoring their god. They don't mind you ignoring the other 1999 gods that man has ever believed in.

PatriarchyPersonified · 15/06/2018 11:28

Headinhands

Didn't that override the Pharoahs free will

Excellent point. It seems that God only cares about free will when it suits him.

headinhands · 15/06/2018 17:33

It seems that God only cares about free will when it suits him.

Or even Christians only care about it when it explains away suffering. And I'm needling myself over this issue too as an ex believer. I would love to know how I made it work. I wasn't stupid. I'm no more intelligent now than I was when I was believer.

I have to assume it was some fairly deft apologetics that would kick in faster than the thinking part of my brain did upon hearing of suffering/abuse.

Jason118 · 15/06/2018 18:14

Delusion works in mysterious ways, it's wonders to performSmileSmile

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Anasnake · 15/06/2018 18:20

I'm always amused at those who claim their religion is the right one. Such a coincidence that you were born into the correct one Hmm

RebelRogue · 15/06/2018 19:07

I'm always amused at those who claim their religion is the right one.

I think it comes from the times when following a religion "properly" was really,really hard..poverty,struggles,your children dying,being sent to fight someone else's war ,oppression,draconic rules etc.

All that sacrifice and effort had to have a reason,a greater meaning. You had the "right" way to make it all worth it(or maybe just bearable). You were going to get something that others that are "less"/didn't follow the rules wouldn't.

I can't see the crusades becoming what they did if the mantra would've been "we might be wrong".

TornFromTheInside · 15/06/2018 19:14

Isn't it logical that people believe their religion is the right one?
At the very least, they are likely to believe their flavour is the most accurate.

I can't really see how it's amusing, as it's entirely expected and logical.

I can see how religion itself could be amusing though, but for me, I just find it incredibly powerful, fascinating and full of sorrow, possibly in equal measure.

RebelRogue · 15/06/2018 21:45

It's logical but in an arrogant and needy way.

TornFromTheInside · 15/06/2018 22:55

I what way arrogant? and we are all needy.

TornFromTheInside · 15/06/2018 22:58

*in

Jason118 · 16/06/2018 00:05

You could argue that any belief without reasons is arrogant

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TornFromTheInside · 16/06/2018 00:19

Or the opposite, that without reason there's no arrogance, because someone simply believes, they can't justify it in rationale terms.
Whereas a 'justified' reason for something could be arrogant because people try to present evidence for it and assume that their idea of evidence is more substantial and convincing that all others.

This is possibly where many religious people come across as arrogant - at the point where they try to justify their belief with evidence about why it's 'right'. They get suckered into responding to 'why?' questions - some of which are genuine curiosity and some of which are goading.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 16/06/2018 00:51

Why has it all come to this
It has come to this because this is exactly how God wants it to be. The hunger games. The winners will be the chosen ones.

If he had wanted it otherwise he would have made men different, he always knew this would be the outcome of his book and the people he created to read it.

We are what we where created and told to be. Or as a famous philosopher once said, "God looked in the mirror and he saw man".

missfattyfatty · 16/06/2018 01:36

I’m see you are very nice teapot and you got principles too, lots will fake it and some can even fake it till they make it!

following a religion for much of history and in large parts of the world is the only sort of meritocracy that allows social mobility for a lot of people. If you don’t have family connections, are not rich, are not smart, friendless, then joining a religion that has universal symbols and rituals that you can perform and well enough that your devoutness can win you acceptance, admiration,belonging to a group etc is a smart move.

Granted some religions have more elaborate rituals to weed out imposters than others, Islam more than most. But islam has enough rules and rituals that just sticking to a small group of them strongly, eg food rules, or hygiene rules, can bestow membership and entitlement to the benefits of the group even if the individual doesn’t observe the five pillars. Christianity with its focus on orthodoxy rather than Islam’s orthopraxy is even more inclusive and all you need to show your credentials is give enough lip service to the Trinity, Jesus as Lord, the virgin Mary etc. In fact joining a religion can give someone poor and unconnected just as much networking opportunity as the old school tie network can give an Etonian.

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