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Philosophy/religion

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Questions about Islam (genuine). Potentially triggering.

89 replies

breathingslowly · 08/03/2018 13:19

Before going on, I want to warn others that this post contains references to rape and child abuse. I'm sorry the post goes on forever. I didn't know what to leave out. If you aren't interested in Islam, I suggest you don't wade into it.

I'm not a regular on mumsnet and apologise if this post is offensive to anyone. I live in a very rural, traditional backwater of the UK and don't have the opportunity to ask about Islam in RL. My background is non-denominational Christian. I'm under no illusions that the Christian faith is free of contradictions, flaws or repressive elements.

I bought a book called 'Fragile Vessels' - a conservative guide to marriage in Islam. It advised that hitting women should be a last resort and only done with small stick. The writers advised that men were more suited to the public sphere and said women were more emotional so were less reliable witnesses in court. It indicated that the best place for a devout woman to be is at home with her family and she should not leave her home unnecessarily or speak to men. The book teaches that women should prioritise raising their children above earning money or watching tv. It stated that men have the right to divorce but women need a very good reason to divorce or they will face punishment afterwards. The book also quoted from a kind of sacred fable that described a special eternal punishment for women who didn't breastfeed their children. The idea that women own their own property was put forward as a great strike for social justice -
until I realised that everything a husband earns 'belongs' to him, even if a couple divorces. He is only obliged to give as he can (and he may have other wives to support), both during the marriage and afterwards. Divorcing women were urged to take an Islamic portion or face the consequences afterwards, even if a Western court awarded them more. Women also do not have the freedom to spend their own money without permission.

In Fragile Vessels, I read that Muhammad married his wife Aisha when she was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine. The writers stated that this was culturally acceptable, partly because women mature earlier in hot climates and Aisha was no ordinary child (despite playing with dolls). Apparently the Koran does not endorse rape or forced marriage, yet in sacred writings regarded as authentic, Aisha describes having no knowledge of what was going to happen to her on the morning of her wedding.

With supporting material from the Koran and Hadith, the writers of Fragile Vessels advocated that a woman should be available to give her husband sex whenever he wants it. Even if she is riding a camel, she should be in a state of permanent readiness. Apparently, husbands have such a right over women that even if a man was covered in pus filled blisters and his wife licked them all off, she would not have fulfilled his right to her. The book seemed to advocate complementary 'responsibilities' in marriage, yet it seemed that men have meet a great deal of their responsibilities by clothing and feeding their wives to a reasonable standard. Many contemporary Islamic teachers seem to deny that the Koran urges traditional roles on men and women, yet it is hard to see how it can be otherwise if only men are suited to the public sphere and women are unable to mix freely with the outside world.

Elsewhere, I have read that Muhammad sucked his 'wife' Aisha's tongue when he was fasting. There do seem to be a plethora of writings detailing his sanctioning of rape when the victims were the 'booty' of war - the women taken captive in battle. Provided they weren't pregnant, Muhammad then allowed his friends to sell the women as slaves afterwards. I also read in the Hadith that Muhammad, acting in accordance with a divine revelation, ordered an adulterous woman to stand in a chest-high pit and be stoned to death. He allowed her to give birth and wean her child first.

Then I bought a book called 'The Koran for Dummies' and listened to some modern Islamic teaching on the internet. It seems that Muhammad is an amazing man, the father of Islam and the greatest moral teacher in the world. I also randomly learned that he was born without an umbilical cord which surprised me because I had elsewhere read that Islam identifies itself as being scientifically advanced. Apparently Islam is a religion of peace, social justice and liberation for women. Anything else is a misconception. If I had been reading about the Koran as it was presented there, I would know nothing about the elements of Mohammad's life described above. I felt misled although I'm happy to agree that in much of the Koran, Muhammad sounds gentle.

Some of the contemporary Islamic teachers on Youtube are credible and impressive, especially when speaking about mercy and forgiveness. I have a great deal of respect for the grace they show towards others. I also acknowledge that the prophet Muhammad had much to say about men and women being equal in theory, even if this didn't translate into the way he structured his home life or behaved on the battle field. I recognise he thought it was better for men not to hit women.

But how does the 'Islam is a peace-loving religion of social justice and gender equality' square with the supposedly 'sealed' teachings of the divinely revealed Koran and the accompanying Hadith/the sunnah? As far as I can make out, Islam is not a religion that can evolve, particularly. It rests on Allah's words as revealed by Muhammad and Muhammad's life as an example of good Muslim living.

I have watched a few debates on Youtube. The answer to any unpalatable story about Muhammad seems to be 'that's not actually in the Koran'. This response seems a little disingenuous - a bit like a Christian saying 'well you're quoting from the book of James now, Jesus didn't actually say that...

I realise the Old Testament of the Bible is sometimes shocking. Without defending that, it is not regarded as 'sealed' in the Christian faith - the New Testament (not that it's perfect either) sets a new standard that Christians see as the final word. There is no talk of going to war, taking slaves, having multiple wives, hitting women, raping anyone. Compared to the early church depicted in the New Testament, the lifestyle of Muhammad and his prophets seems, in many ways, more brutal and repressive than the Old Testament. Given that Muhammad's words and life are regarded by Muslims as the definitive word from Allah, I don't know how to credit the claim that Islam has a remarkable track record in promoting women's rights. Yet it seems that many contemporary Muslims genuinely believe this.

Can anyone help me understand where contemporary Muslims are coming from? While I despise some of the things Muhammad seems to have done and advocated, I realise that Islam inspires many people to live charitably and well. I'd like to understand. If you can help, I'd be very grateful. If I've caused offence, I'm sorry.

OP posts:
TooManyPaws · 08/03/2018 13:22

You would be better off asking this in the Spirituality/Religion section in Body & Soul under Talk. You're more likely to get a reasoned discussion with fewer GFs.

DalekDalekDalek · 08/03/2018 13:24

I'm not sure if AIBU is necessarily the right place for you to get the answers you are looking for.

QuiteLikely5 · 08/03/2018 13:24

For the life of me I can’t see why you have posted this here.

The book you are quoting was not the way Mohammed said people should treat each other.

TheQueef · 08/03/2018 13:34

YABU if you think anyone will discuss this, the fear of Islamaphobic labelling trumps equality.

crunchymint · 08/03/2018 13:34

Islam is like Christianity, it has many branches. The most conservative branches do condone wives being hit and rape in marriage. But just as not all Christians worldwide follow the same type of christianity, not all Muslims follow the same branch of Islam.

GorgeousJaws · 08/03/2018 13:35

TLDR so jumped to the last paragraph to see your AIBU.

Go to your local mosque maybe and speak to an Imam.

AIBU isn't the place for this.

thedancingbear · 08/03/2018 13:38

Meh. The bible calls for adulterers to be stoned. There are branches of christianity around now that advocate murdering gay people. You can find someone using religion to advocate almost any position, if you try hard enough.

Why the focus on Islam, OP? Why not Hinduism, Catholicism, Rastafarianism, Sikhism? There are strains of each of these which I'm sure you'd disagree vehemently with...

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 08/03/2018 13:39

It’s religion and any religion takes their sacred texts and interprets them the way they want to. The Fragile Vessels one has taken the hard conservative route.

If you have an even slightly Christian background can’t you apply your thinking round that to Islam?

Eltonjohnssyrup · 08/03/2018 13:44

There are, as is the case with most religions, different interpretations and different schools of thought.

Reading just one book and taking that as gospel (ahem) is probably not a great idea. I know for example that there is controversy around Aisha and her age and exactly when things happened.

I think the book you read probably gives a Salafi reading of Islam which tends to the extreme. Books from a Sufi point of view would give you a very different perspective.

Barbie222 · 08/03/2018 13:47

Thankfully no one in my family would give any of that the time of day. However, there are likely pockets of people who are still in this mindset. Hopefully a very very small minority.

MerryShitmas · 08/03/2018 13:49

I can't google right now (using my very slow netbook and it takes an age to switch sites or open a tab!) but I'm pretty sure Aisha married Muhammad in 700AD? Ie; some 1300 years ago? What else was acceptable then, in those cultures?

CaptainKirkssparetupee · 08/03/2018 13:49

You might want HQ to move this

TakeMe2Insanity · 08/03/2018 13:52

So how does a person living in a backwater go off on the internet (I assume) and decide to buy a totally random book on Islam rather than maybe buying the actual Quran? Interesting you’ve decided to read around the topic rather than the source. Why AIBU if you have genuine questions?

crunchymint · 08/03/2018 13:53

Its like wanting to know more about Christianity and reading one book, then thinking all Christians think like that.
Sadly in Britain the branch of Islam being pushed is one of the more conservative branches.

SwarmOfCats · 08/03/2018 13:54

Agree with a previous poster - a visit to your local mosque would result in a more productive and well-informed discussion, and you’ll be more likely to get answers to your questions.

MrPan · 08/03/2018 13:56

Curious OP.

As has been suggested, go to a mosque.

MN and AIBU is not the way to answer your questions. But Isuspect a bit you know that already.

OfaFrenchmind2 · 08/03/2018 13:56

You make good points. But quickly hide them... You will get a huge amount of what about....

TakeMe2Insanity · 08/03/2018 13:57

worth a read

If you are genuinely interested in reading around topics, maybe have a read at what ages people were married off in Europe at that time. Look at the lives of people in that region pre Islam.

breathingslowly · 08/03/2018 13:58

Thanks to those who have replied with some knowledge.

Forgetting Fragile Vessels and looking only at the Koran and associated writings then. I've read extremist interpretations of the New Testament but to be fair, there were a huge amount of supporting verses included in Fragile Vessels, all very straight down the line.

I'm genuinely interested in Islam and how Muslims extrapolate from Muhammad's life to a place of prioritising mercy, forgiveness, gender equality and peacefulness. Islam is the religion I'm most interested in, perhaps because it claims Christ as one of its own.

I could certainly use my own background to speculate but it's only speculation. Christ and Muhammad weren't terribly similar.

OP posts:
TitaniasCloset · 08/03/2018 13:58

Oh gosh. I'm place marking so that I might try to respond later. I'm half asleep and haven't had coffee yet. Had a very late night.

Snowmagedon · 08/03/2018 13:59

Why should she go to a mosque? People ask about all kinds of stuff on here all the time!

TrollTheRespawnJeremy · 08/03/2018 14:03

crunchymint I think that's a bit of a mass generalisation...
"in Britain the Islam being pushed is the more conservative variety"

I don't think that is true at all. Ahmaddiya islam is one of the fastest growing groups and they are very very moderate. They are the group that people coming to the faith are most likely to find accessible.

breathingslowly · 08/03/2018 14:03

In response to the suggestion to go to a mosque...there is no mosque here. I could make a (long) journey to go to a mosque but it's difficult with small children. Also, I'd like to speak to ordinary people of faith, as it's relatively easy to hear what an iman preaches. And I wouldn't buttonhole a believer in a mosque and put these questions to them. I could stand outside with a sign saying 'Believers interested in responding to unfavourable observations about Islam please come and talk to me' but there are safety issues because it could be construed as some kind of demonstration and it's easier to see if there's anyone here who is simply willing to explain where they're coming from, and doesn't mind.

OP posts:
BarbarianMum · 08/03/2018 14:05
TrollTheRespawnJeremy · 08/03/2018 14:07

As an atheist and in the duties of fairness, I also feel bound to inform you that I also recently discovered a Baptist sect who believe that sleeping with a non-virgin woman is akin to sleeping with a prostitute.

As such, they subject their female children to 'hymen intactomies' carried out by a pastor.

It's absolutely batshit.