Questions about Islam (genuine). Potentially triggering.

[breathingslowly]

Before going on, I want to warn others that this post contains references to rape and child abuse. I'm sorry the post goes on forever. I didn't know what to leave out. If you aren't interested in Islam, I suggest you don't wade into it.

I'm not a regular on mumsnet and apologise if this post is offensive to anyone. I live in a very rural, traditional backwater of the UK and don't have the opportunity to ask about Islam in RL. My background is non-denominational Christian. I'm under no illusions that the Christian faith is free of contradictions, flaws or repressive elements.

I bought a book called 'Fragile Vessels' - a conservative guide to marriage in Islam. It advised that hitting women should be a last resort and only done with small stick. The writers advised that men were more suited to the public sphere and said women were more emotional so were less reliable witnesses in court. It indicated that the best place for a devout woman to be is at home with her family and she should not leave her home unnecessarily or speak to men. The book teaches that women should prioritise raising their children above earning money or watching tv. It stated that men have the right to divorce but women need a very good reason to divorce or they will face punishment afterwards. The book also quoted from a kind of sacred fable that described a special eternal punishment for women who didn't breastfeed their children. The idea that women own their own property was put forward as a great strike for social justice -
until I realised that everything a husband earns 'belongs' to him, even if a couple divorces. He is only obliged to give as he can (and he may have other wives to support), both during the marriage and afterwards. Divorcing women were urged to take an Islamic portion or face the consequences afterwards, even if a Western court awarded them more. Women also do not have the freedom to spend their own money without permission.

In Fragile Vessels, I read that Muhammad married his wife Aisha when she was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine. The writers stated that this was culturally acceptable, partly because women mature earlier in hot climates and Aisha was no ordinary child (despite playing with dolls). Apparently the Koran does not endorse rape or forced marriage, yet in sacred writings regarded as authentic, Aisha describes having no knowledge of what was going to happen to her on the morning of her wedding.

With supporting material from the Koran and Hadith, the writers of Fragile Vessels advocated that a woman should be available to give her husband sex whenever he wants it. Even if she is riding a camel, she should be in a state of permanent readiness. Apparently, husbands have such a right over women that even if a man was covered in pus filled blisters and his wife licked them all off, she would not have fulfilled his right to her. The book seemed to advocate complementary 'responsibilities' in marriage, yet it seemed that men have meet a great deal of their responsibilities by clothing and feeding their wives to a reasonable standard. Many contemporary Islamic teachers seem to deny that the Koran urges traditional roles on men and women, yet it is hard to see how it can be otherwise if only men are suited to the public sphere and women are unable to mix freely with the outside world.

Elsewhere, I have read that Muhammad sucked his 'wife' Aisha's tongue when he was fasting. There do seem to be a plethora of writings detailing his sanctioning of rape when the victims were the 'booty' of war - the women taken captive in battle. Provided they weren't pregnant, Muhammad then allowed his friends to sell the women as slaves afterwards. I also read in the Hadith that Muhammad, acting in accordance with a divine revelation, ordered an adulterous woman to stand in a chest-high pit and be stoned to death. He allowed her to give birth and wean her child first.

Then I bought a book called 'The Koran for Dummies' and listened to some modern Islamic teaching on the internet. It seems that Muhammad is an amazing man, the father of Islam and the greatest moral teacher in the world. I also randomly learned that he was born without an umbilical cord which surprised me because I had elsewhere read that Islam identifies itself as being scientifically advanced. Apparently Islam is a religion of peace, social justice and liberation for women. Anything else is a misconception. If I had been reading about the Koran as it was presented there, I would know nothing about the elements of Mohammad's life described above. I felt misled although I'm happy to agree that in much of the Koran, Muhammad sounds gentle.

Some of the contemporary Islamic teachers on Youtube are credible and impressive, especially when speaking about mercy and forgiveness. I have a great deal of respect for the grace they show towards others. I also acknowledge that the prophet Muhammad had much to say about men and women being equal in theory, even if this didn't translate into the way he structured his home life or behaved on the battle field. I recognise he thought it was better for men not to hit women.

But how does the 'Islam is a peace-loving religion of social justice and gender equality' square with the supposedly 'sealed' teachings of the divinely revealed Koran and the accompanying Hadith/the sunnah? As far as I can make out, Islam is not a religion that can evolve, particularly. It rests on Allah's words as revealed by Muhammad and Muhammad's life as an example of good Muslim living.

I have watched a few debates on Youtube. The answer to any unpalatable story about Muhammad seems to be 'that's not actually in the Koran'. This response seems a little disingenuous - a bit like a Christian saying 'well you're quoting from the book of James now, Jesus didn't actually say that...

I realise the Old Testament of the Bible is sometimes shocking. Without defending that, it is not regarded as 'sealed' in the Christian faith - the New Testament (not that it's perfect either) sets a new standard that Christians see as the final word. There is no talk of going to war, taking slaves, having multiple wives, hitting women, raping anyone. Compared to the early church depicted in the New Testament, the lifestyle of Muhammad and his prophets seems, in many ways, more brutal and repressive than the Old Testament. Given that Muhammad's words and life are regarded by Muslims as the definitive word from Allah, I don't know how to credit the claim that Islam has a remarkable track record in promoting women's rights. Yet it seems that many contemporary Muslims genuinely believe this.

Can anyone help me understand where contemporary Muslims are coming from? While I despise some of the things Muhammad seems to have done and advocated, I realise that Islam inspires many people to live charitably and well. I'd like to understand. If you can help, I'd be very grateful. If I've caused offence, I'm sorry.

Oh do stay Chaz, and MrPan with It's a miracle Father

Every further post from the OP only confirms her agenda.

breathing
I have many thoughts, including some interesting thoughts about the true purpose of this thread.

Op I get where are coming from. There is a middle ground between the two extremes you have described. Islam provides a framework that can fit as easily into modern life as it fitted Arabia 800 years ago, without having to change its foundations. I feel that listening to Islamic scholars might be of more benefit than reading. I would suggest that you search for Abdul Hakim Murad and Hamza Yusuf on YouTube. Both converted to the faith. Also the website seekershub.org has excellent audio and free courses.
With specific reference to Aisha, the age she married in unclear, the age of 6 is debated. The issue is often used as a red herring. At that time, girls were considered women as soon as their periods started, and marriage at age 12 was pretty normal, including in Europe.

I blame the Romans.

Me too, fuckin' Latin bastards.

Thank you fabulous. I'll investigate those. And that's mumsnet!!

For you and your pals, barb, I'd say this. There's a difference between asking questions, honest debate and sniping because someone stuck their head above the parapet to ask a question. I do see, though, that some people can't imagine that someone would genuinely try to understand something faith related, or think that it might be worth the risk to ask an awkward question about things that matter.

Talking is how understanding takes place and people should be free to ask, provided no one is obliged to answer. It's better than making a private, blanket judgement about the kind of faith that would produce these texts. I've been asked every question in the book about Christianity and have never taken offence. There are no wrong questions.

Because I know that Muslims aren't different to me, I knew many would have the same feelings about the verses and views I've mentioned, yet they are still in Islam so there was obviously more information or a thought process there that I didn't know about.

I find it interesting to try and understand. You find it interesting to hang about a thread like this finding things...interesting. I can't imagine anything more dull than listening to someone you don't know ask questions you don't believe are real about a religion you don't believe in. I'd ask why but it's one question even I can't be bothered knowing the answer to.

Thanks so much to those who have responded. I've had my fill of the sniping so please PM me if you would like to talk further and MN will alert me by email.

Islam is unique among all the major religions in that it mandates the death penalty for apostasy (where a muslim questions, criticises or ridicules Mohammed's teachings, or leaves Islam and adopts another religion). It also mandates the death penalty for LGBTs, and apparently all Jews too, since according to the Koran the final day and the final hour can't come until all the Jews are killed.

That should tell you all you need to know about Islam. In case it doesn't, just read through some of these reviews (of the "Reliance of the Traveller", the book of rules underpinning Sharia law).

www.amazon.com/Reliance-Traveller-Classic-Islamic-Al-Salik/product-reviews/0915957728/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_show_all_btm?reviewerType=all_reviews&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8

I leave you with a quote from Winston Churchill, made in his younger days as a war reporter, in which he gives his views on Islam.

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die: but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

well HughE, funny you mention Sir Winston Churchill's opinions on Islam. that quote you posted is true, and was an excerpt of his opinions of muslims in in 1899, but by 1907 his sister in law was urging him to rein in his enthusiasm for islam fearing he would convert.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11314580/Sir-Winston-Churchill-s-family-feared-he-might-convert-to-Islam.html

That story reads like clickbait based on very tenuous evidence.

@breathingslowly

At best you are being disingenuous, and only God know what your true intentions are and God is sufficient as a witness.

And the following is sufficient to disprove of what you allege against the last and final Prophet of God.

Recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book and establish prayer. Indeed, prayer prohibits immorality and wrongdoing, and the remembrance of Allah is greater. And Allah knows that which you do.

And do not argue with the People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

And thus We have sent down to you the Qur'an. And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture believe in it. And among these [people of Makkah] are those who believe in it. And none reject Our verses except the disbelievers.

And you did not recite before it any scripture, nor did you inscribe one with your right hand. Otherwise the falsifiers would have had [cause for] doubt.

Rather, the Qur'an is distinct verses [preserved] within the breasts of those who have been given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.

But they say, "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The signs are only with Allah, and I am only a clear warner." Qur'an 29:45-50.

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. Qur'an 3:7

SubmitToTheOne - You are GreatNews and I claim my five pounds

@Jason118. Yes. You can claim ten pounds.

Hope you're doing ok

I'm well thank you. Terrible at remembering logins and passwords so, had to create a new one :-(