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Philosophy/religion

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Questions about Islam (genuine). Potentially triggering.

89 replies

breathingslowly · 08/03/2018 13:19

Before going on, I want to warn others that this post contains references to rape and child abuse. I'm sorry the post goes on forever. I didn't know what to leave out. If you aren't interested in Islam, I suggest you don't wade into it.

I'm not a regular on mumsnet and apologise if this post is offensive to anyone. I live in a very rural, traditional backwater of the UK and don't have the opportunity to ask about Islam in RL. My background is non-denominational Christian. I'm under no illusions that the Christian faith is free of contradictions, flaws or repressive elements.

I bought a book called 'Fragile Vessels' - a conservative guide to marriage in Islam. It advised that hitting women should be a last resort and only done with small stick. The writers advised that men were more suited to the public sphere and said women were more emotional so were less reliable witnesses in court. It indicated that the best place for a devout woman to be is at home with her family and she should not leave her home unnecessarily or speak to men. The book teaches that women should prioritise raising their children above earning money or watching tv. It stated that men have the right to divorce but women need a very good reason to divorce or they will face punishment afterwards. The book also quoted from a kind of sacred fable that described a special eternal punishment for women who didn't breastfeed their children. The idea that women own their own property was put forward as a great strike for social justice -
until I realised that everything a husband earns 'belongs' to him, even if a couple divorces. He is only obliged to give as he can (and he may have other wives to support), both during the marriage and afterwards. Divorcing women were urged to take an Islamic portion or face the consequences afterwards, even if a Western court awarded them more. Women also do not have the freedom to spend their own money without permission.

In Fragile Vessels, I read that Muhammad married his wife Aisha when she was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine. The writers stated that this was culturally acceptable, partly because women mature earlier in hot climates and Aisha was no ordinary child (despite playing with dolls). Apparently the Koran does not endorse rape or forced marriage, yet in sacred writings regarded as authentic, Aisha describes having no knowledge of what was going to happen to her on the morning of her wedding.

With supporting material from the Koran and Hadith, the writers of Fragile Vessels advocated that a woman should be available to give her husband sex whenever he wants it. Even if she is riding a camel, she should be in a state of permanent readiness. Apparently, husbands have such a right over women that even if a man was covered in pus filled blisters and his wife licked them all off, she would not have fulfilled his right to her. The book seemed to advocate complementary 'responsibilities' in marriage, yet it seemed that men have meet a great deal of their responsibilities by clothing and feeding their wives to a reasonable standard. Many contemporary Islamic teachers seem to deny that the Koran urges traditional roles on men and women, yet it is hard to see how it can be otherwise if only men are suited to the public sphere and women are unable to mix freely with the outside world.

Elsewhere, I have read that Muhammad sucked his 'wife' Aisha's tongue when he was fasting. There do seem to be a plethora of writings detailing his sanctioning of rape when the victims were the 'booty' of war - the women taken captive in battle. Provided they weren't pregnant, Muhammad then allowed his friends to sell the women as slaves afterwards. I also read in the Hadith that Muhammad, acting in accordance with a divine revelation, ordered an adulterous woman to stand in a chest-high pit and be stoned to death. He allowed her to give birth and wean her child first.

Then I bought a book called 'The Koran for Dummies' and listened to some modern Islamic teaching on the internet. It seems that Muhammad is an amazing man, the father of Islam and the greatest moral teacher in the world. I also randomly learned that he was born without an umbilical cord which surprised me because I had elsewhere read that Islam identifies itself as being scientifically advanced. Apparently Islam is a religion of peace, social justice and liberation for women. Anything else is a misconception. If I had been reading about the Koran as it was presented there, I would know nothing about the elements of Mohammad's life described above. I felt misled although I'm happy to agree that in much of the Koran, Muhammad sounds gentle.

Some of the contemporary Islamic teachers on Youtube are credible and impressive, especially when speaking about mercy and forgiveness. I have a great deal of respect for the grace they show towards others. I also acknowledge that the prophet Muhammad had much to say about men and women being equal in theory, even if this didn't translate into the way he structured his home life or behaved on the battle field. I recognise he thought it was better for men not to hit women.

But how does the 'Islam is a peace-loving religion of social justice and gender equality' square with the supposedly 'sealed' teachings of the divinely revealed Koran and the accompanying Hadith/the sunnah? As far as I can make out, Islam is not a religion that can evolve, particularly. It rests on Allah's words as revealed by Muhammad and Muhammad's life as an example of good Muslim living.

I have watched a few debates on Youtube. The answer to any unpalatable story about Muhammad seems to be 'that's not actually in the Koran'. This response seems a little disingenuous - a bit like a Christian saying 'well you're quoting from the book of James now, Jesus didn't actually say that...

I realise the Old Testament of the Bible is sometimes shocking. Without defending that, it is not regarded as 'sealed' in the Christian faith - the New Testament (not that it's perfect either) sets a new standard that Christians see as the final word. There is no talk of going to war, taking slaves, having multiple wives, hitting women, raping anyone. Compared to the early church depicted in the New Testament, the lifestyle of Muhammad and his prophets seems, in many ways, more brutal and repressive than the Old Testament. Given that Muhammad's words and life are regarded by Muslims as the definitive word from Allah, I don't know how to credit the claim that Islam has a remarkable track record in promoting women's rights. Yet it seems that many contemporary Muslims genuinely believe this.

Can anyone help me understand where contemporary Muslims are coming from? While I despise some of the things Muhammad seems to have done and advocated, I realise that Islam inspires many people to live charitably and well. I'd like to understand. If you can help, I'd be very grateful. If I've caused offence, I'm sorry.

OP posts:
C8H10N4O2 · 08/03/2018 14:07

People ask about all kinds of stuff on here all the time!

In the talk section on religion and spirituality there are many knowledgeable posters interested in discussion religion and spirituality and comparisons therein. I would echo suggestions to request its moved to that section.

In AIBU the direction is toward binary right/wrong responses which is rarely helpful on this type of question. The post is also likely to be missed by posters interested in this subject simply because of the volume going through AIBU.

happygirly1 · 08/03/2018 14:08

Like most people outside of the religion, I only have a basic understanding of Islam. So considering your interest and questions require probably quite an in depth interpretation of Muhammad and the Quran, I think you're best speaking to someone who actively practices the faith. Others have suggested a Mosque and so if you don't have anyone in your social circle who you can ask, I think this is probably a good place to start.

OfaFrenchmind2 · 08/03/2018 14:08

Jesus was not a leech....

LeCoqLazy · 08/03/2018 14:08

Agree with a previous poster - a visit to your local mosque would result in a more productive and well-informed discussion, and you’ll be more likely to get answers to your questions

Biased you mean?

Look up Dr Tom Holland OP

OfaFrenchmind2 · 08/03/2018 14:10

Frankly, I think we should support the neo-sufi far more than our politicians do currently. they support an non-political, egalitarian and enlightened Islam.

crunchymint · 08/03/2018 14:11

Yes Ahmaddiya islam is very moderate and agrees with the separation of the state and religion. Its not my experience, but I would be very happy if that became the dominant branch of Islam in Britain.

Missingstreetlife · 08/03/2018 14:15

Google islamic information centre, Leicester

Eltonjohnssyrup · 08/03/2018 14:16

Ahmaddyi Muslims are brilliant but quite a lot of Salafis want to kill them. Most other Muslims think they are heretics. Very persecuted in Pakistan and a couple of years ago an Ahmadi Muslim who ran a shop was murdered here by a Sunni because of religious hate.

crispypancakes00 · 08/03/2018 14:19

Your post sounds so completely genuine and believable. Anybody knows that if you have questions about Islam you come to Mumsnet. Also, if you are interested in Islam that book is obviously the first one you'd think of buying, since it's so well known and all that.

I'm in awe at the OP's wide-eyed innocence act.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 08/03/2018 14:19

Lot of Ahmaddyi Muslims in my city as refugees. They do a lot for the local community regardless of faith including involvement with the British Legion. Very involved in charity and really keen to engage with people across the city regardless of faith and with no agenda of their own. Very big on understanding and living in harmony regardless of the beliefs of others.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 08/03/2018 14:21

missing, thanks for that link. Sounds really interesting and might pay a visit.

Brian9600 · 08/03/2018 14:24

I'm sure I'm not alone in finding the OP utterly disingenuous. If you want to have a pop at Islam at least have the honesty to do so openly, rather than through a series of hinty-hinty-twat questions.

BMW6 · 08/03/2018 14:25

It strikes me that Christianity had very much the same views until relatively recently. Who can say that Islam won't evolve as (most) Christian belief has.

Seafoodeatit · 08/03/2018 14:25

I can't answer your questions and I don't have knowledge. It is a religion though that on the whole has an image of being unwelcome to questioning but it is happening and there are people in communities and from within the religion pushing for cultural aspects to be taken out.

Pre-pubescent girls being made to wear a veil being one of them, becoming more widespread in religious communities due to cultural influences despite not being sanctioned in the religion itself.

The old testament is pretty grim, it's still part of the bible whether you think it applies anymore or not, it's still supposed to be the same god in both parts, the stories of murder, rape and incest are still horrific even if they're not supposed to apply any longer, they were still considered okay by the same christian god .

Coyoacan · 08/03/2018 14:27

Also, I'd like to speak to ordinary people of faith

You post a lot of frankly insulting misinformation about Islam as an invitation for people of faith to engage with you? I found it so nasty I had to stop reading.

If I wanted to ask about Christianity I would be much more respectful.

Whiterabbitears · 08/03/2018 14:39

Are there not Islamic forums on the internet that you could ask these questions? I don't think if I wanted to find out this stuff my first thought would be Mumsnet. What's the likelihood of there being enough posters knowledgeable enough on AIBU to answer these? I hope this isn't one of those threads that descends into bashing Islam, they often start out with 'innocent' questions.

TrollTheRespawnJeremy · 08/03/2018 14:39

OP you've wasted your money on some ridiculous and inflammatory books.

Just burn them. Don't even bother charity shopping them.

If you ever want to do some research I am sure MNers can put you in the direction of appropriate material.

thecatfromjapan · 08/03/2018 14:41

I think a good place to start would be to google a reading list for Comparative Religion as studied at university level.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/03/2018 14:41

I find it interesting that of all the books that must be available on Islam you chose this specific book that appears to have been published at least 12 years ago as your starting point.

Was there no more recent more broadly focussed book you could find Hmm

CaMePlaitPas · 08/03/2018 14:43

The best and probably only way to learn about Islam is through their holy book the Qu'ran which they believe is the direct word of God given to their prophet. This book that you have read is the product of propaganda and verbal tradition which has been distorted through the centuries and concentrates on "hot" topics that will make the book sell. What you quote is not the Islam I recognise nor is it the Islam that many men and women believe in. The prophet was considered the perfect human being chosen by God to deliver His message but a lot of what is written about him has been written by followers, fellow believers but people who were no way as perfect as their prophet so on this basis their accounts are considered unreliable. The bottom line is that Muslims are supposed to believe what is written in the Qu'ran and use that as the basis of their beliefs. The life of Mohamed can be used as an outline for the everyday implementation of the religion but from my understanding of the religion we are supposed to live our lives as best we can in accordance to the holy book. Also just fyi, Christ is considered a very important prophet to the Islamic tradition, delivering the gospels to the earth. He and his mother, Mary (Myriam in the Islamic tradition) are considered holy and highly respected - mentioned several times in the Qu'ran - but Jesus is not considered the son of God and is not to be worshipped as he was but a man, just like Mohamed. Prophet worship is absolutely forbidden.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/03/2018 14:44

OP as for your comments on the Old Testament does that mean the 10 Commandments are not sealed in the Christian faith?

(I was brought up as a Christian and went to faith schools - they were pretty keen on the 10 Commandments)

Username12345 · 08/03/2018 14:44

When you want to find out about a religion, ask on a site where the majority are not from that religion. And in AIBU at that.

Hahahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, ok.
Not much common sense in the backwater dwellings, are there?

TrollTheRespawnJeremy · 08/03/2018 14:46

I like that Islam recognises other faiths in it's holy book and sees them as fairly legitimate enterprises.

I also find it fascinating that they were all able to co-exist until Christianity came careering around the corner absolutely hell-bent on converting everybody.

I blame the Romans.

YetAnotherHelenMumsnet · 08/03/2018 14:49

Hi OP,
We have moved your thread to Philosophy/Religion as it seems more fitting than AIBU.

Roomba · 08/03/2018 14:52

Making assumptions about a Methodist Christians based on reading a couple of different books you've read about Catholicism and Othodox Judaism would be the equivalent of what you're doing here, OP. Someone who was a Catholic couldn't advise you on Methodism very thoroughly, even though they're both Christian and the Bible is the holy book for both.

Islam is the same as Christianity - many branches and many different interpretations incorporated into social norms at different points throughout history. The issues Jesus's followers argued about in 850AD bear little resemblance the the arguments held by the Westboro Baptists or Russian Orthodox believers in 2018, for example. So it is with Islam. Islam is not just one fixed set of beliefs, unchanging alongside society and across borders/class/education levels.

Child marriage, incest, execution of homosexuals and adulterers, wife beating, use of black magic... All feature in the bible and many Christian societies throughout history too. So you questions really can't be given an unbiased single answer.

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