When did Jesus actually die?

[PoloPrincess]

Can someone point me in the right direction?
We know that Jesus was crucified on Good Friday and he rose from the dead on Easter Sunday.
Then what happened? When and how did he finally die?

53rd

Nice try, I never professed to know what all Christians believe. They can believe any number of different things.

However Christianity (and other religions) teach the existence of Hell. Hawking wasn't a Christian, so if I'm wrong and the Christians are correct then that's where he is right now.

Nice.

That’s interesting. So you think ‘Christianity’ teaches one thing, but various people who call themselves Christians are... unaware of this? Understand Christianity less well than you do?

I thought the only way to salvation was to accept jesus as saviour?

Or have I missed a bit?

You’ve missed 2000 years of theological discussion on exactly what that means, speakout, so sort of, yes.

There are Christians and Christian denominations (in the loosest sense) who believe that all non-Christians get tortured for eternity in hell. (They also think most other Christians are going there too!) But the major denominations don’t teach this.

You can protest that they should teach it if you want to, like the fundamentalists do, but it seems a bit strange to criticise people for beliefs they don’t hold and then criticise them for not holding those beliefs.

You can protest that they should teach it if you want to, like the fundamentalists do, but it seems a bit strange to criticise people for beliefs they don’t hold and then criticise them for not holding those beliefs.

Except none of us are immune from the effects if christian doctrine.

I think that gives me a right to comment.

Christianity does teach the existence of hell. It is there in RC dogma for example but what hell actually is is up for debate. In the late 1990s the doctrine commission of the C of E published a report 'The Mystery of Salvation' which states that hell is eternal death rather than eternal torment. Hell is empty is the official line of my denomination.

My experience of some atheists is that they deep down believe that all people of faith are fundamentalists. It comes as a shock therefore to discover that we are not.

Except none of us are immune from the effects if christian doctrine.

I think that gives me a right to comment.

Well of course you’re free to comment on what Christian doctrine says. It just seems a bit odd to criticise Christians (individually or collectively) for not holding certain beliefs that you find repellent yourself anyway.

yeah, I’ve found that too greenheart. Also a lot of atheists who wholeheartedly agree with the basic fundamentalist position that fundamentalism is the best/purest/truest way to approach religion, and everything else is watering it down.

53rd

As a PP stated, all the major Christian denominations teach the existence of Hell. They just differ on what its like.

Some subscribe to the belief that it is a place of damnation and eternal torture and suffering. Others like to take the line that its just a bit....not very nice? The usual line is something like 'apart from God', 'alone forever' or something else remarkably non-specific, I assume that's your interpretation? (please correct me if I'm wrong)

You describe those who take a more 'traditional' view as 'fundamentalists' and not indicative of Christianity. I wonder if we did a survey of Christians around the world, which view of the nature of Hell would be in the majority, yours or the 'fundamentalists'? You realise they would see your position as just as 'wrong' as you see mine?

However you want to slice this, the fact remains that no Christian doctrine teaches that non-believers are going to be 'having a conflab and a fair bit of joshing' with God.

The 'good news' of the Bible is supposed to be that we are saved from our sins by Jesus's sacrifice. What are we saved from exactly, other than going to Hell?

Its interesting to me that you think that you are right and that all other denominations of Christianity are wrong based on precisely no evidence, just what you have been told. Sums up the religious mindset rather nicely.

I was talking about the probability of an afterlife, as I said that's how I view it.
Perhaps you have different probabilities because that's not what you want to believe.
The odds on my God being right are much less than 50/50. Was there not a scientist who said the odds on a God are 67%?

Hell is eternal separation from God. Not necessarily all fire and broom stone with torture like everyone's stereotypical view.

namechangerbob

Perhaps you have different probabilities because that's not what you want to believe

I hate to break it to you, but what you believe or not doesn't make any difference to what is actually true. The odds of something being true or not are always going to be based on objective facts and evidence.

If you think differently then pop to your logical casino and believe as hard as you can that you're going to win. Let me know how that works out.

The odds on my God being right are much less than 50/50

Its interesting that I get called arrogant and over confident despite using facts and logical arguments to support every position that I take on here, yet statements like that somehow get a free pass?

*local casino

Bloody autocorrect.

(Although a logical casino sounds like fun as well)

no Christian doctrine teaches that non-believers are going to be 'having a conflab and a fair bit of joshing' with God.

No, that’s not true.

One fairly standard (to the point of being mainstream) interpretation of hell is that it is a) eternal separation from God, and b) chosen by those who wish eternal separation from God. Jesus has already saved everyone; to not be in heaven, you have to actively reject that as an act of free will, which requires you to be fully informed of what you’re rejecting. So on that understanding, atheists wouldn’t be destined to eternal torment any more than polytheists from a tiny mountain tribe in South America 10,000 years ago would be.

I’d add that while you conceive of eternal separation from God as just some wishy-washy ‘not very nice’ thing, it’s obviously a fairly big deal to Christians, and the kind of thing that would be metaphorically described as eternal torment.

Another view is that heaven and hell are the same thing - the eternal presence of God is experienced as torment by those who don’t want it and bliss by those who do.

I wonder if we did a survey of Christians around the world, which view of the nature of Hell would be in the majority, yours or the 'fundamentalists'?

“The fundamentalists” aren’t “the people who disagree with me” - it’s a theological position I’m describing.

As for what Christians believe - well, half of the world’s Christians are Catholic, and the Catholic Church does not teach that all unbelievers automatically go to hell - it’s a part of Catholic doctrine that whatever you believe about Hell, you still can’t say who’s going to Hell or not, because that would be assuming God’s power of salvation can be constrained by mortal knowledge and understanding.

Another large portion are Orthodox, who generally teach the “same thing, different experiences of that thing” view of the afterlife I mentioned above. Then there’s the churches in communion with the Anglican Church, which - see above what a CofE Christian already told you. Mainstream Protestant teachers and beliefs vary (obviously), but there are definitely a large number (including probably the best modern Protestant theologian, Karl Barth) who took a view that universal salvation was possible and should be hoped for, the “Jesus already saved everybody” approach.

Now. I appreciate this all sounds like so much woolly meaningless theology blather to you, which is fine. I’m not trying to convince you of any position regarding afterlives. But if you want to argue about what Christians believe, you do need to grapple with the reality of what Christians actually believe.

You realise they would see your position as just as 'wrong' as you see mine?

NO WAY, fundamentalists think I’m wrong? Well blow me over with a feather!

Being arrogant and over confident would be to be to say my God was the only one, while continually putting everyone down and telling them they were wrong. I haven't once done that. I don't believe what I believe is the only way, I've previously said I understand why people view things certain things other ways.
I just meant the probability of the religion and God I believe being correct is less than 50, not like I said 99% 🤔

But you can't say what is actually true. While there is still a chance, it could always be true. If I was to go to a local casino and bet on black or red - it will either be black or red. Even if it had landed on black the last 3 times, people would say there's more probability of it being red, to me it has the same chance of black.

53rd

I really enjoy the mealy mouthed 'you need to be fully aware of what you are rejecting to go to hell' argument, that gets wheeled out as a reason why non-christians aren't neccesarly condemned.

It seems like a cheeky bit of revisionism to try and make Christianity not quite as cruel as it initially sounds.

The problem with that argument is obvious. It means that the Christian missionaries of old actually condemned far more people to hell than they ever saved. If they hadn't turned up and 'enlightened' the locals, they would never have known about Christ and would have been saved by default.

If the only reason I ended up in Hell is because a missionary had told me about Jesus, but wasnt convincing enough to win me over, I'd be mightily pissed off.

I'm glad you do acknowledge that Hell involves torment and suffering though, (even if you think it's spiritual and emotional suffering rather than literal)

What has Hawkins done to deserve that I wonder? Why do any of us deserve that?

It seems like a cheeky bit of revisionism to try and make Christianity not quite as cruel as it initially sounds.

Well that’s handy for you, but you’re arguing against a straw man. That position isn’t “anyone who’s been told about Christianity and isn’t a Christian goes to hell.” - fairly obviously, or I wouldn’t have been including modern British atheists in there, would I?

I'm glad you do acknowledge that Hell involves torment and suffering though, (even if you think it's spiritual and emotional suffering rather than literal)

You’re thinking of “torment and suffering” in the sense of Abu Ghraib style punishment. That isn’t the kind of Christian belief I’m discussing (or that I hold). The position is that in comparison to eternal union with God, anything else would be pretty bad, but if you don’t want eternal union with God then that’s up to you. Again: that’s not a niche Christian belief.

What has Hawking done to deserve that I wonder? Why do any of us deserve that?

I’m not the one saying Hawking is suffering eternally in hell, mate. You’re the only one here saying that.

So atheists and non-believers don't go to Hell?

Brilliant. Even less reason for Religion then.

Thanks 53rd Have you ever considered becoming an anti-theist? Your making a lot of arguments for us.

Was never a particularly compelling reason for religion in the first place, but okay, good for you!

53rd

Was never a compelling reason for religion in the first place

Erm ok. I was under the impression that the whole of Christianity was based around the saving of mankind by Jesus?

What were we being saved from exactly?

Hieronymus Bosch-style demons with pitchforks, obviously!

Nah. In basic Christian theology, from sin and the consequences of sin (primarily, separation from God). Salvation if you go back to how the OT writers understood it (compared to e.g. Billy Graham) was seen more as liberation than parole.

53rd

Separation from God

Which you've just described as 'eternal torment'

So Hell then?

Which you've just described as 'eternal torment'

So Hell then?

Would it make you happier if I did believe in the brimstone-and-pitchforks hell? You really seem to want me to.

I think separation from God, in comparison to union with God, would be awful. But if you don’t want to be in union with God then you presumably wouldn’t find it awful, would you? So.... what’s the problem?

53rd

I don't want you to believe anything, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the logical inconsistencies with your argument.

I don't care if you think it's literal 'pitchforks up the bum' torture or emotional and spiritual torture. 'Eternal torment' sounds pretty hellish to me.

I can't get to the bottom of what you actually believe. Apparently you only go to this place or end up in this situation (let's not call it Hell) if you consciously reject God, and that's bad....

But now it seems like you are saying it's not that bad at all if your an atheist because you wouldn't care anyway?

So if it's just separation from God and that only matters if you care about God, then what is the point of it at all?

So if it's just separation from God and that only matters if you care about God, then what is the point of it at all?

The importance of free will - that we can’t be compelled to spend eternity in union with God.

You’re still viewing it as a punishment, and then complaining that it’s not a very good punishment.

I can't get to the bottom of what you actually believe.

Because I haven’t outlined what I personally actually believe. I’m giving you a very short version of a few mainstream Christian schools of thought on what hell is. I’m not trying to convince you it’s true, I’m pointing out to you that Christians believe it, therefore your proclamation that “Christianity” would put Stephen Hawking in hell for eternal torment is misinformed.