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Philosophy/religion

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Please explain something about Christianity

302 replies

GoodyGoodyGumdrops · 26/11/2016 11:45

Before I start, I just want to be quite clear that I'm not trying to be contentious or antagonistic. I'm a person of a different faith, who accepts the plurality of faiths, and wants to live in peace and understanding with others.

My question is about Jesus's death atoning for your sins. Does he not atone for all sins past and future, so that others can believe in him and also receive this atonement? In which case, why do you need to behave ethically?

OP posts:
headinhands · 06/12/2016 20:45

"It doesn't mean they didn't exist"

Which is an acceptable plausibility if you have already done the necessary mental acrobatics in order to ignore the glaring,yawning chasm between what we know from science and what is portrayed in Genesis.

ChristmasPeace · 06/12/2016 23:12

Well as you no doubt are well aware, some christians think the creation narrative is symbolic and that God used evolution in his creation. Other christians say that it is literal, as it is written, and that if you believe God can raise people from the dead then the miracle of creation is also credible.

The fact is none of us were present to witness creation or evolution, so we have faith in either man who say today's science is 100% accurate or we have faith in God that he is well able to create a world in 7 days if he wants to.

Fully qualified scientists also argue about the rate of radioactive decay rates, and whether they're constant or variable. If they've been variable over time (none of us were there to observe it) then the rocks come out at thousands rather than billions of years old. But if you say the decay rate is constant then you get a reading much higher than that. Since one of us where there a thousand years ago, much less a billion, we can't say for sure whether it's variable or not.

It's all a matter of faith. But I can see how you have no faith in any of God's ability, so of course if you don't believe Jesus died and rose again and lives now, then yes, I can see why you're not going to agree to the rest of it either. That's what belief and unbelief is all about after all.

ChristmasPeace · 06/12/2016 23:22

OP, in answer to your first post, you're factually correct that Jesus died once and for all sins, past present and future. There are many reasons for christians to live 'right' before God. One is that the act of true faith in God and the resurrection of Jesus, changes your goals. You start to feel more sensitive about certain things, you start to want to give more and make lasting changes because you see there is an eternity and life isn't just in the hear and now. You want to please God the same way you want to look and behave your best for a new date, or a boss you respect, or any valuable person who you want to be happy with you. Furthermore God says those who believe in Him are his adopted sons (and daughters) and he trains and corrects them in love. So like a child, if you step out of line, you can expect consequences. God even describes himself as a parent to us.

So first and foremost your desires change. Secondly your conscience is prickled more than it used to be (which is God's Holy Spirit within you, challenging and guiding you), and lastly you don't get away with turning your back on God in rebellion so, whilst God is gracious and patient, God doesn't let people get way with it.

headinhands · 09/12/2016 17:29

The fact is none of us were present to witness creation or evolution, so we have faith in either man who say today's science is 100%

The fossil record shows again and again a pattern of evolvement. As yet, since it was first discovered, no fossil is out of place. We can go to the British museum and see fossils and we can even study the science of evolution for ourselves up to Doctorate.

As for creation, there's no data to study. Indeed many Christians appreciate evolution and what the fossil record illustrates: dinosaurs below gorillas for example.

I'm an atheist. If science proved evolution was wrong tomorrow I'd still be an atheist until I had reason to believe in a God who was interested in humans. It's not that I don't want to believe in a loving God, it's that I have no reason to as much as it sounds lovely.

Science loves to prove things wrong because it means it's getting nearer the truth. If the scientific body discovers it's made a mistake it's a massive plus. Not a disaster. Evolution isn't a hunch. It's the word used to describe the predictable pattern of fossil placement.

headinhands · 09/12/2016 17:35

He is well able to create a world in 7 days if he wants to.

Why would he create it in a way that contradicts his message to mankind I.e. the bible. Why would he want it to look like it was a very slow process of trail and error shown by many features in the natural world such as the humans eye need to flip the image? And why did he create organisms that have to lay their eggs in other organism's eyes rendering them blind and causing suffering?

headinhands · 09/12/2016 17:42

Since one of us where there a thousand years ago, much less a billion, we can't say for sure whether it's variable or not.

Which is more my position than yours. I'm not an atheist because of science. I'm an atheist because I have no reason to believe in any of the gods on offer. If I wake up tomorrow to find the scientific body saying they've realised their calculations were off and they have no idea how old any rocks are it wouldn't follow that any of the gods on offer were real.

And here I am just biding my time waiting for a reason to believe. All your arguments could have me believing any of the gods available, and any I could make up in my head while I wash the dishes.

ChristmasPeace · 10/12/2016 15:32

The fossil record shows again and again a pattern of evolvement. As yet, since it was first discovered, no fossil is out of place. We can go to the British museum and see fossils and we can even study the science of evolution for ourselves up to Doctorate.

The trouble with the fossil record is that it fails to unmistakably offer what is often called the “missing link”. I agree of course we can go to the British Museum and see fossils, but the interpretation of those fossils is an area people don’t fully agree on as I mentioned before.

For Christians who believe the literal creation account, the data is there to study, but they of course use variable decay rate data rather than constant, and so their readings are much younger fossils than the evolutionary model of very old fossils. Same fossils, different way to crunch numbers. None of us were there so it’s all a game of who you decide to trust.

I agree that if evolution was proven wrong you would still be an unbeliever. If that were not true you wouldn’t have some Christians go along with evolution, but we know that some do, so its obviously a separate issue. I really liked what you said about “it's not that I don't want to believe in a loving God, it's that I have no reason to as much as it sounds lovely”. That statement demonstrates an atheist with an open, gentle spirit.

I think I’m a bit more skeptical than you are about science loving to prove itself wrong. I am sure it sometimes happens, but there is something about the human pride that wants to be right, to be considered of high status because of knowledge or findings. It’s also well documented that being a Christian scientist is a hard, lonely working life, and especially if one doesn’t altogether agree with evolution.

Why would he create it in a way that contradicts his message to mankind I.e. the bible. Why would he want it to look like it was a very slow process of trail and error shown by many features in the natural world such as the humans eye need to flip the image? And why did he create organisms that have to lay their eggs in other organism's eyes rendering them blind and causing suffering?

First of all, the creation account tells of God planting trees that bear fruit. So not seedlings. What the creation account doesn’t tell us is how old the trees were, but logic tells you they must’ve been at least a few years old to bear fruit. Who knows if they were older? It’s quite possible that God didn’t make it look like a slow process, though I am aware of some groups thinking that God deliberately deceived people to test them; I find that quite ludicrous and out of character because the bible says God does not lie. He is not a deceiver. By contrast, everything God says and does is dependable and very clear. It is quite possible that God didn’t make it look like a slow process and more than he made the earth flat. Mankind in their wisdom of science once believed the earth was flat, but it doesn’t mean God made it flat, it means their science was wrong.

The human eye is an incredible and very complex piece of equipment; that is certain. Quite why God made it the way he did is beyond me, and as far as I know Christians can’t hazard a guess as to why, a bit the same way we don’t often fathom God’s ways in other areas. On a personal note, I believe that God is in control of my life, but I used to think if something went badly wrong (which, over the years it did) then somehow God was making a big mistake. To be honest I took it personally, and was very angry at God for many years. It took me a long time to realise that if I don’t trust God’s love then I won’t trust His rule in my life. It seemed obvious once I realised it! Now it is different. I read of Job in the bible and how he said “though He slay me, yet I will trust Him”, and I see it the same way now, and I trust God has a plan, even if I don’t know what, exactly. When circumstances scream the opposite, I hold on firmly to my trust in God, and His love - even when I am completely mystified as to why he should that particular allow pain and suffering to happen, and what good could ever come of it.
Sometimes we look back and can see good that has come of a bad situation, but sometimes we can’t. And that’s when faith comes in. Trusting that God is who he says he is, and trusting his love on a personal level.

In the same way, I don’t know why certain creatures have the capacity for evil. Perhaps it is allowed by God, in the same way he allowed satan to come against Job for a while? I suppose you could stick it in the same category as all human suffering, whether it be cancer, infant death, tsunami’s, earthquakes, mental psychosis. It wouldn’t be too much of a surprise, seeing as satan is the enemy of our souls and seeks to destroy us mentally, socially, spiritually, and physically. Christian’s understand that God created everything in perfection, which changed as soon as man tried to make themselves equal to God, and disobeyed him the one rule he had made for them: “don’t eat of the fruit”.

ChristmasPeace · 10/12/2016 15:33

And here I am just biding my time waiting for a reason to believe. All your arguments could have me believing any of the gods available, and any I could make up in my head while I wash the dishes.

This statement made me smile (in a nice way, not being facetious). For what it’s worth, I think its brilliant you don’t follow after false gods; I don’t want to either so I’m with you there.

I think it’s probably important to say that any false god you make up in your head while you wash the dishes would be your imagination. God always says that false gods and idols should not come above Him: the One True God. Christian’s know how unpopular it is to say that there is one true God. It is seen as arrogant, opinionated and uncompromising. Of course the same can be said for the belief that all gods (kitchen-sink ones or otherwise) lead up the same mountain; the belief that all gods are the same is a belief that has to be right, and anything else is completely wrong, and is therefore just as arrogant, opinionated and uncompromising.

The way Christian’s look at it is this. The bible is valid. They know this by researching prophesies and historical/archeological claims. I remember reading that the names in the bible have been researched and found to statistically reflect accurately the names used by actual people in biblical times. So if (just as an example) 10% of Peter’s are found in the bible, secular records show 10% of people in that era were actually called Peter. If the bible uses 15% of the name James, that era also did. Christians see this as adding to the picture of credibility. If you and I were going to write a fictitious account of modern history we’d maybe use names like John, David, Peter, Stephen. But statistically, we wouldn’t be able to reflect a true statistical representation of the names used in 2016. So, just as an example, maybe we’d use the name “Joshua” for 2% of the story but actually its used by 20% in the modern day. It would be hard to make it up accurately, without access to the actual statistics. Most of us wouldn’t even bother with that, even if we could.

Christian’s also recognise that all religions have certain commonalities, such as a penalty, higher power, a life beyond this life, but all of the false religions are about what you can do to save yourself, and the “higher power” is somewhat unknown: you never know if you’ve done enough to please them. Christianity is the only religion that teaches Jesus is the only way to God, and that He paid the penalty out of love for us. We can’t earn our way into heaven, so there’s no wondering if you qualify, its very simple and straightforward, and the way to please God in your life is to love Him and each other. The bible tells of people turning to false gods all the time, out of rebellion, out of wanting to be self-sufficient, out of wanting to make up their own (kitchen-sink) religion to follow, and this has not changed over time.

The modern day thinking is that it doesn’t really who your god is, so long as you’re sincere about it and it means something to you. But the trouble is, a person can be sincerely wrong. If a person is reading a map for directions and are certain they need to go West because they sincerely believe they’re reading the signs, it doesn’t change the fact that their hotel room is East and that they’re lost! Tragically some people today sincerely believe homeopathy will heal their cancer and refuse conventional medication, but their belief is misguided, no matter how sincere it is.

Christians can be tolerant, humble, considerate, and gentle, without agreeing that all gods are the same. Likewise, non-Christians’s can be intolerant, proud, inconsiderate and harsh whilst agreeing that all gods are the same. So what I am saying is the two are separate. Being a true Christian means reflecting God’s love and qualities of honesty and justice. Unfortunately not all who profess to be Christian’s actually are true Christians, and not all care to obey God and follow Him or reflect the qualities of his character. Many people can be hurt by these so-called Christians because it causes non-believers to think they are rejecting the real thing, when they’re actually rejecting something false, which is the right and understandable thing to do!

headinhands · 11/12/2016 12:48

I think it’s probably important to say that any false god you make up in your head while you wash the dishes would be your imagination

But that's exactly how I feel about all gods of recognised religions. Someone imagined it up at some point and got others to think it was real.

Suppermummy02 · 11/12/2016 12:49

My question is about Jesus's death atoning for your sins

1st off, assuming the bible is true: Jesus didn't really die, it was a near death experience before he was resuscitated. Death is the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism, but it wasn't permanent for Jesus so it wasn't death.

2nd, atoning: I didn't give permission for Jesus to atone for my sins, so does this mean Jesus took away my free will when he forced this upon me?

3rd, sin: It was Eve, an ancestor of mine apparently, that ate an apple she shouldn't have, so Jesus was atoning for her sins, not mine.

The question should be about
"Jesus's NDE, to atone (against your free will) for the sin of your ancestor eating an apple she shouldn't have (even though she had no understanding that what she was doing was wrong)"

headinhands · 11/12/2016 12:53

Peter, Stephen. But statistically, we wouldn’t be able to reflect a true statistical representation of the names used in 2016. So, just as an example, maybe we’d

Hmm. I need more evidence. I'm not swayed by that sufficiently to believe Jesus was God.

Using your logic I have no reason to not think Harry Potter is actually a wizard owing to the fact that the kids at Hogwarts have names of real people.

Suppermummy02 · 11/12/2016 12:59

If the creation story is symbolic, does that mean a snake didn't literally tell Eve to eat an apple and Eve didn't literally eat the apple?

So if Eve didn't literally eat the apple, then their was no 'sin' committed. So what was Jesus atoning for, a symbolic sin?

What is the creation story symbolising? don't we need to know what actually happened so we can determine whether or not the sin was a genuine 'sin' that was horrific enough to need a temporary blood sacrifice to forgive.

Suppermummy02 · 11/12/2016 13:03

You can actually go see Hogwarts, it is real.

Please explain something about Christianity
headinhands · 11/12/2016 13:29

But the trouble is, a person can be sincerely wrong

So someone's got the wrong God, but they sincerely believe it's the right God. And they love their God and people. What happens when they die?

headinhands · 11/12/2016 13:33

Christianity is the only religion that teaches...

Adherents of other faiths say the same about their religion. That their religion is the real deal. And that your faith is false. And feel sorry for you that you're following a non existent deity.

headinhands · 11/12/2016 13:39

remember reading that the names in the bible have been researched and found to statistically reflect accurately the names used by actual people in biblical times.

Sorry to hark on but even secular scholars accept the bible is very old and would therefore have people with old names. I cannot see how this in anyway relates to believing in a God. I couldn't imagine anyone saying 'I'm a Christian because this book that was written in 2000 bc has people with names they actually used in 2000 bc.

Am I missing something?

ChristmasPeace · 11/12/2016 13:41

Jesus didn't really die, it was a near death experience

The dictionary definition of death is "the action or fact of dying or being killed;" Jesus was killed on the cross and his dead body placed in a tomb. The part that is miraculous is that he rose again from the dead. You have to be dead to come alive again. The fact this isn't a regular occurrence (resuscitation doesn't count) shoes that it was divine intervention.

I didn't give permission for Jesus to atone for my sins, so does this mean Jesus took away my free will

You weren't there to ask, but that's not the point. Christians recognise Jesus paid the price once and for all sins. The free will part is whether you choose to rebel against God and turn away from him, or whether you talk to him honestly and say "I don't believe you exist but if you do then open my eyes to see for myself. Make it obvious". God says if you seek me you shall find me, and if you knock the door will be opened to you. God means what he says and says what he means.

Jesus was atoning for her sin, not mine
Christians recognise they, like everyone else, have all done wrong, whether it's lying, stealing, cheating, getting angry, being unfair, acting selfishly or worse. Remember the story of the rich man who kept God's laws? When Jesus asked him to be generous, he wasn't prepared to because he wanted to keep everything for himself. So even when we're really trying we're still not perfect. A holy God who is perfect and just, requires perfection and holiness. We can't achieve this so Jesus did on our behalf.

How many people can usually afford to buy a house outright. This isn't the best example because obviously we pay back mortgages over 25 years and some people get houses handed down through generations, but bear with me here. When there's no money in the pot people go to a bank and get the money on loan. You can't expect a bank to just give it away for nothing, that's not justice. Someone has to pay. It's the same with our sin. Atonement has to be made in order to pay, because a Holy God requires justice. Christians think of the wages of sin resulting in death and the free gift of God being eternal life, and see Jesus' death as payment made in full when there's no way to pay the full cost ourselves. Jesus was perfect so was the perfect atonement to a holy God. The rich man, good though he was, was not perfect enough to make the full atonement himself, and nor are we.

headinhands · 11/12/2016 13:45

The fact this isn't a regular occurrence (resuscitation doesn't count) shoes that it was divine intervention.

No it means it's made up.

ChristmasPeace · 11/12/2016 13:47

Headinhands I get where you're coming from, however christians see that God is different because the bible is accurate historically, archaeologically and prophetically, as well as bringing a real challenge that is very much alive and a hugely positive influence in people's daily lives. Christians see that other false gods came afterwards, (even during the writing of the early bible books) which speaks for itself.

headinhands · 11/12/2016 13:50

Re: the mortgage analogy. God is paying himself? I assume it was his idea to need someone to die/suffer? What a bizarre way of dealing with people. If someone lets me down I don't need to see someone suffer to forgive them. Much less a third party.

ChristmasPeace · 11/12/2016 13:51

Hmm. I need more evidence. I'm not swayed by that sufficiently to believe Jesus was God.
It's not about taking one price of evidence. It looking at how it all fits together. The naming accuracy is just one part. For example, the names used in Harry Potter are most likely not a reflection of the 2016 top names used in the same ratio as used in the book. Rd honestly really hard to do!

Just for a quick self-test, think of the top 5 names for boys for, saying the last decade, and we're them down with a percentage of what you think their popularity actually is. Then research what the real stats are and I can bet you you won't get all 5 right (unless you cheat!). But yet the bible does. It adds to the supporting evidence that the bible isn't fabricated.

headinhands · 11/12/2016 13:52

Hinduism is older than Christianity. So that one must be real.

ChristmasPeace · 11/12/2016 13:54

If the creation story is symbolic, does that mean a snake didn't literally tell Eve to eat an apple and Eve didn't literally eat the apple?

I think those christians say it's only symbolic for the creation bit, but I actually agree with you and I take the literal interpretation as being God creating the world as described exactly.

I think you only have to listen to the evening news to know for sure that sin has entered our world. In fact, come to think of it, we probably don't even need to check the telly for it. We only need to look at ourselves to see we're also wrong-doers sometimes.

headinhands · 11/12/2016 13:56

historically, archaeologically and prophetically,

Like the census that couldn't have happened because the area was two different countries and Bethlehem was uninhabited at that time.

ChristmasPeace · 11/12/2016 14:00

So someone's got the wrong God, but they sincerely believe it's the right God. And they love their God and people. What happens when they die?

Christians believe the bible when it says God imprints his law on our hearts, which we can turn to, or rebel away from. The same goes for his invisible attributes seen around us. So when someone does a huge favour, leaving you touched by their love, that is a reminder of God's love deep for you. When we are moved to tears by a song or a beautiful view, that has God's name written all over it whether we fully recognise it at the time or not. I nursed in intensive care for a while, and many times gave everything I had to patients who will never even know what I look like. For months I tended them, and gave them all my expertise, but they never knew. They came out of hospital knowing they'd been in itu but not being aware of it at the time. Life is like that. Those near-misses? Those strokes of good luck? Those moments of pure joy and peace? To the Christian they're all from God as reminders or his love to you.

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