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Philosophy/religion

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Please explain something about Christianity

302 replies

GoodyGoodyGumdrops · 26/11/2016 11:45

Before I start, I just want to be quite clear that I'm not trying to be contentious or antagonistic. I'm a person of a different faith, who accepts the plurality of faiths, and wants to live in peace and understanding with others.

My question is about Jesus's death atoning for your sins. Does he not atone for all sins past and future, so that others can believe in him and also receive this atonement? In which case, why do you need to behave ethically?

OP posts:
Rockpebblestone · 17/12/2016 12:46

Rockpebblestone do you not find it problematic that you can find scripture that says one thing and me scripture that says otherwise?

Problematic? Yes, in the sense a person to be reconciled to either continually seeking an answer until one is found, accepting that the answer might be unprovable or rejecting an account as holding any truth whatsoever. I tend to aim to be relaxed about the seeking, giving myself chance to find answers and digest the information, whilst recognising a conclusive answer might not be found in this life. I think life is intricately complex so it does not surprise me the Bible reflects these complexities.

The thing is, the people in the OT accounts you were talking of were living in a context where blood sacrifice, animal and human sacrifice, including child sacrifice was rife. War and bloodshed was rife. The OT gives accounts of people's understanding of their relationship with God from within this context. Blood sacrifice seems to be, practically universally, present in most human societies, including Pagan ones, so there does seem to be some deep need within the human psyche that is concerned with blood sacrifice.

I see the accounts as being inspired through having a relationship with God but the experiences are those of and told through a people whose daily lives were very much intertwined with blood shed, through blood sacrifice and war.

My stance is, that I take what I can understand from the Bible. For me to think that it continues to be necessary for those worshipping God to make blood sacrifices would be to ignore Christ and the atonement.

Rockpebblestone · 17/12/2016 12:49

...needs to be reconciled. Typo.

ChristmasPeace · 17/12/2016 12:56

a. he has given us fair warning, really? So say I was born in the most remote part of the jungle, never hearing or seeing the outside world. Never hearing good word. Living a life that is not to harmful but totally sinful in terms of the bible. Maybe I had 3 wives, I have made numerous idols of false gods I was brought up with and praised them, never kept the Sabeth because I no not of it and so on. Not that the sin is that important as the magic key is accepting god in the first place. Anyway I was to die tragically you would understand me being a little upset if I was to come up to find this god that I never knew existed and them sent down for an eternality of horrible painful torment in hell? You would be like hey man you could have given me some warning!

The bible refers to this exact situation. In Romans chapter 1, it speaks of how God has been revealed since the very beginning of time, to everyone, and so it included every single person, whether they live in the bush or the city. It speaks of God's "invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made". It then says: "so that people are without excuse".

Romans 1 :18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."

b. We judge each other and often have legal frame works. These vary in fairness depending on cultural expectations and parts of the world. Most systems at least try to write some sort of proportionality into their sentencing structure, not god. He is very inflexible on this matter. You either except him as lord no matter how evil you have been on earth and go to heaven. Or you don't except him and face an eternity in pain and misery. Even if you have not been a very good persons that seems a little harsh don't you think? I mean an eternity of never ending pain and misery. That easily a million times worse than the death penalty. And in most places around the world they try to carry of the death penalty in a quick and as pain free as possible manner. Definitely not something that is drawn out in pain over an eternity.

The trouble is, we are eternal beings. You can't suddenly become a non-eternal being just because you made the wrong choice! Thats like saying its not fair to die because you jumped off a cliff. There are consequences that you have to accept.

Ok so we see god punishing the truly wicked. Lest see what he does eh? So 'God brought judgement it was at a time people had turned to idols, and were busy sacrificing their babies to the idols'. So he looks down and says that's bang out of order, fair play. So naturally he decides that mass genocide would show them a lesson, it sure did. Killing innocents. Once killing the whole planet and ironically all the innocent babies and animals bar two of every type. Does that sound like fair justice? Of course I suppose the population of the plant that was cleansed by god are still enjoying an eternity in pain.

It wasn't just two of every kind, there were seven of some kinds, but yeah, I get what you're saying. What you're saying is, God is allowed to bring judgement but it has to be acceptable to you, a mere mortal? And you accept that death may be an ok punishment, but it has to be the right type of death, on of your choosing? With all due respect, you are not God! It strikes me a bit like someone peering over the shoulder of a brain surgeon, trying to tell them what to do. It's a bit above our station!

Let look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? So the whole male population wants to rape the two angles that god set down. Understandably this is horrible and god is fairly upset. So how does god deal with it justly? Of course 'then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land' (Genesis 19). So he slaughters all the bad men, the innocent women, children, toddlers and babies.

It wasn't just rape they were doing, they were committing atrocities that would make you wince. The people were collectively in complete rebellion against God. Unfortunately, when people collectively make wrong choices, the innocent suffer too. In Syria at the moment, men are making bad choices and everyone is suffering. That's what happens and it is a tragedy. But here, in Sodom and Gomorrah, the women were as much to blame as the men, and the babies are the innocents. But if you judge their parents with death, they babies will die anyway, won't they? Its a terrible and tragic consequence of men's really awful decisions.

Then just to add salt to the wounds he saves Job (the good guy) but his wife gets turns into salt because she disobeys god and looks at its destruction.

They were living in a position where they knew they had to obey God, it was such an extreme time, a real judgement, and they needed to continue to obey God to survive physically. She would have gone to heaven as a believer, but as we find in the new Testament, delivers that disobey God face consequences, sometimes even to an early death. Not always, but sometimes, and god is the judge of that, not you or me.

And now the wicked heathen men, women and children of that land are spending eternity in pain and suffering. Was this slaughter just and proportional?

They had a lot of warning first, as always.

ChristmasPeace · 17/12/2016 13:11

And don't forget that Yahweh drowned a tonne of babies and asked one of his biggest fans to kill their child.

This is a really interesting story, God had promised Abraham that his son Isaac would be the father of many generations. God telling Abraham to sacrifice him was testing Abraham's faith in what God had promised. Abraham was prepared to do what God told him because he believed that God would find a way to bring his dead son alive in order to fulfil his promises, he trusted God to that level.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

God did this purely as a test to see how much faith Abraham had, which we see from here was complete and full trust in God's direction and his ability.

1DAD2KIDS · 17/12/2016 17:09

May be I am looking at god but the standards of decent humanity. Maybe as ChristmasPeace basically because god is god he is perfectly justified to be a complete devil and carry out by human standards such evil atrocities? After all I am not god so who I am to tell him how nasty he should be?

a. ChristmasPeace we seem to agree to a certain extent the message of the bible. Although where you see it as righous and see it as disgusting and makes me all the more thankful that in reality god is just a construct. You say Romans chapter 1 tells us that he has been revealed to every one thought existence. Well I think the bible is telling a bit of a fib on that one. Who honestly believes that god has revealed him self to everyone, really. Why is acceptance of God so regionally based? Why is only about 30% of the world Christian? If god is so great and revealed him self to everyone do you not think far more of would be?

b. As a the top we seem to agree on gods barbaric actions in the bible. But we don't agree on its righteousness. But yes if I did believe in god I would be doing exactly what he say be that is one bad ass pain machine not to be messed with. And maybe that is the point of these stories to scare us into submission of this tyrant. He is kind of like the most evil feudal lord you can imagine. I can find no justice or proportionality in the kind of justice he dishes out. Although I do think you are a dying bread in the Christian world. A lot of Christians are turned off by god barbarism and either just ignore it all give it the line that they are just made up tales meant as lessons. So hats off to you for keeping it real when so many don't want to talk of god wrath.

Looking back on the story of Sodom and Gomorrah I don't get it? You claim collateral damage in God cleansing. Not being funny but if god was just and all powerful why are we seeing collateral damage. Where is the justice in inflicting death and suffering on the innocent? Plus as horrible as the people may have been I doubt they all ware tent such destruction. There does not seem much justice in blanked genocide. Of course this story also raises god hierocracy. He smites with great vengeance these people for their barbaric actions but on numerous accounts in the bible he orders and inflicts such wickedness on others. Talk about double standards. Like I said some of his actions would need a sick mind to think of them.

Rockpebblestone I am glad you are still looking for answers. I would love to know are you likewise open to the idea that maybe god doesn't exist? That maybe the vast majority of the world who do not recognise this god maybe right? Does it not make you wonder that a book that is so mixed up maybe something of human construct and not the work of a divine power?

Rockpebblestone I also agree that in context to the time that these things where fairly normal in the human realm. But you can not escape the sick atrocities ordered by or carried out by god? Is his morality something that is always good or does his morality reflect that of the wicked people of the time? For example if people on earth are raping and eating their babies at the time are you saying it was ok for god to make people do the same on his command? Like I say he is bad ass. I mean there are bits of the bible that read like an instruction manual for ISIS.

Rockpebblestone · 17/12/2016 17:25

I would love to know are you likewise open to the idea that maybe god doesn't exist?

Short answer is 'no', 1DAD but evidently my view of God and Christianity is quite different from your own so we are continually talking at cross purposes.

The reason I mentioned context, is that from a modern perspective, it is quite a stretch to get to grips with the psychology of the people, relaying the accounts of the OT. Understanding their relationship and experiences with God and their perception of them, from the context the accounts were relayed, I think, involves much more than taking everything at face value. A face value reading of the OT is insufficient to understanding the nature of God.

1DAD2KIDS · 17/12/2016 18:50

Rockpebblestone so just to clear things up do you believe the stories of the bible? It's intresting that you talk about the context and psychology of the time. So for you I take it that you are of the thinking that these are not book of truth per se but more a book written by humans that is very much a book of its time? A book that tells tales for guidance rather than accurate truth of God's actions.

Rockpebblestone · 17/12/2016 19:12

I do believe them, however I think the truth within them works at different levels. Each account comes from a specific perspective. This is why I think context is vitally important to understanding. To my understanding context cannot be divorced from an account of any kind if any meaning is to be found.

headinhands · 17/12/2016 19:54

This is why I think context is vitally important to understanding. To my understanding context cannot be divorced from an account of any kind if any meaning is to be found.

If you discovered your neighbour drowning a bath full of babies how long would ponder the context of his actions before calling the police?

Rockpebblestone · 17/12/2016 20:17

head, context makes your hyperthetical question irrelevant. My neighbour is not God, believe it or not. We need to report people's crime to prevent further damage. Whereas how would a human judging a god prevent their godly power?

As I have said, I believe it is a possibility, planetary systems may have made the flood inevitable. God preventing it may have caused something else to be knocked out of balance. The people drowned were not taking any notice of God or any warnings, as their habitual sin indicated. Tragedy ensued. However their sin would have been causing tragic damage too.

Rockpebblestone · 17/12/2016 20:19

And even with humans, context is taken into account during a legal trial and sentencing.

headinhands · 18/12/2016 00:27

And even with humans, context is taken into account during a legal trial and sentencing.

What context would mitigate your neighbour drowning a bath full of babies

headinhands · 18/12/2016 00:37

Whereas how would a human judging a god prevent their godly power?

I assume at some point you judged God? How did you decide Christianity was good?

Judging a God might not prevent the God behaving in a certain way but making a moral judgement isn't about that. It's about deciding if that God is morally superior or inferior to yourself. If I die and find myself being judged by God my criticisms remain, his behaviour portrayed in the bible is despicable. All his power doesn't stop my brain making value judgements.

headinhands · 18/12/2016 00:41

God preventing it may have caused something else to be knocked out of balance

What's happening here is your superior 21st century morality is looking for a way to justify a behaviour that you find monstrous. The bible doesn't back up your speculation. Your gymnastics belie your discomfort.

Rockpebblestone · 18/12/2016 07:36

No gymnastics, head, I am well used to looking for layers of meaning in texts - it comes without great effort. As for discomfort, not form my perspective. If I thought about God, the way your posts portray you doing, then I strongly suspect I would be very ill at ease.

Anyway, what would you do if we all thought like you? This discussion board is getting quite full of your posts attempting to bedazzle us religious types with your 'logic'. What answer do you think would satisfy whatever motivates you?

Rockpebblestone · 18/12/2016 07:41

but making a moral judgement isn't about that. It's about deciding if that God is morally superior or inferior to yourself

Really, head? Do you engage in this kind of judging very often? With people? Line us all up in your head in order of moral superiority then work out your placing? Don't think I'd like that as a pastime.

headinhands · 18/12/2016 08:15

Line us all up in your head in order of moral superiority then work out your placing? Don't think I'd like that as a pastime.

You're missing my point. I'm talking about judging God. I assume you judged him, as in thought about his character, in order to decide he was the real deal.

I reckon we're probably fairly similar morality wise and I know we're both morally superior to the God of the bible.

I also reckon we both judge others. Of course we do, not in the MN judgey pants way but in making moral evaluations of behaviour we find uncomfortable. Such as someone hitting a child or stealing etc. Anyone who maintains they don't make moral judgements on themselves and other people is kidding themselves. It's a necessary part of society.

headinhands · 18/12/2016 08:21

This discussion board is getting quite full of your posts attempting to bedazzle us religious types with your 'logic'.

You're getting very 'ad hommy' now. Play the ball not the player. If you can't answer/don't want to engage then move along.

headinhands · 18/12/2016 08:26

No gymnastics, head, I am well used to looking for layers of meaning in texts

But you appear to gloss over/avoid the top layer. The bit where it says in black and white that God drowned babies.

I'm interested to see how it can be spun in an intellectually satisfying way that a God drowning babies is the action of a loving deity. I don't know what explanation would satisfy me. I can't imagine. It just seems to me that no amount of context makes it palatable.

headinhands · 18/12/2016 08:34

God did this purely as a test to see how much faith Abraham had, which we see from here was complete and full trust in God's direction and his ability.

God would have known how much Abraham loved him. Being God and all.

If I ever doubted my husbands love for me I would ask him. And look at his actions. What I wouldn't do is set up a scenario where he was prepared to slit our sons throat before I believed him. That would make me a monster. I hope my DH would leave me and take the kids if I even suggested it.

Rockpebblestone · 18/12/2016 23:10

I also reckon we both judge others. Of course we do, not in the MN judgey pants way but in making moral evaluations of behaviour we find uncomfortable. Such as someone hitting a child or stealing etc. Anyone who maintains they don't make moral judgements on themselves and other people is kidding themselves. It's a necessary part of society.

Really? I intervene if I see behaviour which is damaging and dysfunctional. I don't judge the person. I acknowledge they are more than just an isolated piece / series of behaviour(s). I recognise I am only seeing part of a larger picture. I don't attempt to compare their morality to my own in terms of whose morality is inferior or superior.

Rockpebblestone · 18/12/2016 23:12

You're getting very 'ad hommy' now. Play the ball not the player.

head, I commented on patterns in your posts on these boards, not your character.

Rockpebblestone · 18/12/2016 23:17

I'm interested to see how it can be spun in an intellectually satisfying way that a God drowning babies is the action of a loving deity.

head, I gave you my interpretation, which I feel fits with the scripture. You don't accept it. You also ignore, completely, all parts of the Bible which explicitly spell out God's loving nature.

What makes your interpretation more authoritative than my own?

headinhands · 19/12/2016 18:03

You also ignore, completely, all parts of the Bible which explicitly spell out God's loving nature

You don't think the nice bits cancel out the genocide? Going back to the neighbour drowning babies. Would you be happy for him to babysit your kids because even though he had killed a bathful of babies, he takes his mum shopping every Monday?

headinhands · 19/12/2016 18:07

I commented on patterns in your posts on these boards, not your character.

What you think of my pattern of posting is neither here no there. Claiming that I'm trying to bedazzle people is neither here nor there. The points I make are the issue. Commenting on anything else is merely deflecting/avoiding.

Again you don't have to address my points. But what won't happen is me not asking questions/making points because of what you think about my style/intentions.

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