Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

I really do despair that these poor little girls get no choice at all in what religion they are, and therefore how they must dress. They miss out on swimming, games, sports etc. due to crazy restrictions on clothing. And the actual rule coming from the religion seems to be nothing more than “dress modestly” – and this rule applies equally to women and men.

It’s the same old story as ever. Men controlling women. With a bit of useful advertising thrown in – the clothing being a clear signal that the girl/woman belongs to the religion.

My proposal is that women who don't have to burden themselves with these oppressive rules don't. Wearing it normalises this attitude to women and asking a child to wear it even more so. Suggesting women in Saudi vote out their govt is a bit of an extraordinary remark tbh.

Fwiw I don't really care if a woman puts a bit of cloth on her head. I don't like the fact that it's always women that God tells to do this. I don't like the fact that all these rules derive from a need to control women and police women's sexuality. But I don't really feel very deeply about it. The niqab however is horrible. It offends against almost everything that women have fought for. Even the much vaunted 'women choosing to wear what they want' argument in its favour doesn't really stack up when you consider the social pressure to conform and the clear absence of these women playing a normal part in civic life in this country.

So many people judging on what they base their opinion of it to be. The muslim women on here have explained why and been very informative, its others who dont wear it being very vocal about how it is. How do you know?

Oh, and I'd say that covering begins around puberty. Once in double digits, you may see a child wearing an open abaya over normal clothes, progressing to a fastened one, and then face covering. Young girls wear shorts and tee-shirts, just like their brothers.
The majority of men are to be found in a thobe and ghutra, so covering arms, legs and head, all be it in a lighter colour, and less tight round the head. Faces are left free. You do not see men in Saudi in shorts. They would be denied entrance to shops and restaurants.

OT but why don't the Olympics ban Saudi like during Apartheid? Women are in the exact same position.

Sorry didn't know where else to ask this, and didn't have the confidence to start a thread.

I don't like the fact that it's always women that God tells to do this.

It's not what he tells Sikhs.

Or Jews

Fair. That answers the question earlier if why people don't object to the orthodox Jewish clothes or the Sikh head coverings.

Of why.

Like I said I don't really care if someone wears something on their head. Those Jewish wigs look very strange to me but the men are also dresses in a very particular fashion. I do not see oppression in a strange head covering though I find it pointless. I see it in this situation where women are actually hidden.

SpecialAgentFreyPie Saudi is sending male and female athletes to Rio. I've just had to look up the figures, and it looks like 9 men and 4 women. But the qualifying (through competition or through special allowances) of the athletes has been in Saudi Newspapers.

As I understand it, South Africa refused to send black competitors, and so were banned. Saudi will allow males and females to compete. On what basis could their participation be restricted??

Dessert I didn't know that. That's great! Definitely a small step in the right direction.

They sent women to London as well. I agree, definite steps in the right direction. As is happening in all areas if life in Saudi. Women can now vote, work, and there are big changes happening regarding access to documentation and freedoms for widowed and divorced women, which hopefully will slowly cascade into everyday life. I say slowly, because nothing happens quickly over there!!!

Maybe in a few hundred year they will be treated as human beings.

How exciting!

Dessert: I have no doubt that society and living conditions, codes and circumstances, are complex. I have no doubt that some things are changing, however slowly. But the nature of influence of the Saudis in promoting their brand of Islam has been well documented.
The basic facts about the law within the Kingdom are the basic facts. I quite often read the Saudi newspaper online. In terms of supporting the freedom of women my choice would not to be to sell my expertise to this regime.

"If you believe this is done by women because they have self-loathing and fear of attacks by men, you surely have to wonder why Muslim communities are the ones where women hold these entrenched views."

sparechange,

i also brought in breast ironing into this discussion because it is also prevalent in central african countries where fgm is practised. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/breast-ironing-in-the-uk-girls-breasts-being-flattened-with-hot-stones-and-metal-in-absurdly-harmful-a6693266.html
of the non blacks who do fgm they are ypically sunnis who follow the african school of orthodoxy which originated in cairo, also the home of fgm from pharoanic times. as the african school spread to its offshoots in malaysia,, indonesia, the yemen so did fgm whereas male circumcision is practised by all muslims, fgm is very highly connected only to those sunnis who are shaafiees. www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/oct/02/reza-aslan/fact-checking-reza-aslans-retort-bill-maher/

if it was just a problem of predatory black men or as you were saying above, predatory black muslim men, then this would be solved by leaving the community, marrying out, etc.

but the pervasiveness of the hypersexual black female trope is even more strong outside the black community. it is actually something campaigned about by many black feminists.
there is much research and commentary about 'fast tailed girls' and how destructive it is to black young girls and women. how pervasively it affects the way society treats them. not just their own black men but also people of other races and their attitudes to the crimes done against black girls and women. fgm and breast ironing is about suppressing the sexuality of black girls thiking it will make them respectable.

www.xojane.com/issues/fasttailedgirls-sexual-assault-of-black-girls-is-not-a-joke

if the performer r kelly had done that to under age white girls as he did to underage black girls, he would have gone to prison. not hailed for his music and standing up like a respectable person with lady gaga performing on tv and shows. but because his victims were black girls its just seen as 'part of their culture'.

www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-brison/slutwalk-black-women_b_980215.html - this article by many prominent black feminist writers on why historical and current harmful attitudes to black women and their sexuality dissuaded them from the slutwalk campaign.

but trying to keep the mantle of respectability for themselves helps no one and muslim women realise that more than anyone else. when the rape trial case of new york city vs dominic strauss kahn collapsed because of the loss of 'perfect rape victim' status of their star witness nafisattou diallo. it showed to many of us following the case that when patriarchy of any stripe decides your not 'clean', so consent to sex is not needed. even if you were a fgm victim, even if the medical examination by the police attested to the claims of the victim.

www.colorlines.com/articles/dsk-rape-case-takeaway-no-5-you-have-be-perfect-victim

healthland.time.com/2011/07/26/no-longer-the-perfect-victim-nafissatou-diallo-defends-herself/

Blimey, this thread has taken quite a turn since I started it

Thank you to timegate and InTheDessert and everyone who has shared their own experiences. To people saying I should just ask the mothers why their daughters are wearing hijabs, hopefully when my DD goes to school I will be friendly with some mums and be able to ask them (she isn't at school yet). But to be honest I would be wary of asking because I wouldn't want them to be offended. From some of these responses it seems that people get really angry about Islam in a way they don't about other religions, so I wouldn't blame Muslim women for being on the defensive about it. of course parents impose religion on their children but that's true of all religion, isn't it? People who have their children christened are making a decision for them as babies, aren't they?

Anyway timegate I think you should definitely organise a meet-up with lots of

Enlightening article in the press today about husbands wearing the hijab in Iran in solidarity with their wives. To demonstrate how ludicrous it is. To sympathise with the hell of wearing the garment in the heat.

There is no choice for these women.

How lucky we are to have choice here. Are you sure you are using that choice fairly, given the plight of these women?

People who have their children christened are making a decision for them as babies, aren't they?

Not really.

Pouring a bit of water on a baby's head one day has pretty much zero impact on the child long term.

Unless you are against bathing.

That is absolutely nothing like forcing a small child to cover themselves in public.

What a ridiculous comparison.

Not to mention the real risk of vitamin D deficiency...... Humans aren't meant to be covered like this. It's not necessary, is it?

Everyone covered or uncovered is at high risk of not getting enough vitamin d. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36846894

Ah, another Islamophobic thread on MN. It's been a while.

I have never seen a Muslim woman with rickets. There are ways to be uncoverd in the sun without other people doing seeing you. When I go Morocco in the summer we drive to a secluded part of the beach and I strip off and swim in the sea. I also sunbathe on the roof. In the UK when it's quiet in the park I will roll up my sleeves.

*seeing not the doing

Is it Islamophobic to say that a) not all Muslim women have complete freedom of choice in dress, lifestyle and behaviour and b) that it is not right to impose/encourage/whatever religious practices on children too young to be able to give informed consent?