Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

Thank you timegate.

It sounds like quite an old fashioned/backward religion in a way.

DoInItFine, they need to get another government elected then and/or get the law changed.

fuctifino you have a right to believe that if you want to. But obviously I will respectfully disagree. And that's fine. Just please don't tell me and other Muslim women how we should live our lives and what our religion means to us, because that wouldn't be fair. I don't judge your choices, please don't judge mine.

Surprising response there timegate. These are oppressive regimes oppressing women like you. But then as you claim, it's only a tiny minority so who cares what's done over there in the name of this religion.

they need to get another government elected then and/or get the law changed.

😂😂😂

Minimise, deny, justify

At least you have been very clear that your interest in the welfare and safety of women in zero.

It's an jnteresting religion that allows you to feel holy for wearing a cloth on your head while you excuse and deny the millions of women forced into covering against their will as "a tiny minority".

How can this "tiny minority" vote for anything?

Don't you believe in human rights?

i see the prevalence of fgm in such communities quite different to you sparechange.

i would argue it is not about how those black somali women see themselves or their daughters but how other people see them and their daughters.

the black female was historically and is still seen both in white racist tropes and by other races as hypersexual. always in heat, can not be raped,animalistic with her bum, her breasts, her walk, the sum of her parts made for sexual service. but only for sexual experimentation, she herself undesirable for marriage because she's too loud, too argumentative, too overt in her sexuality and her manners to be a lifelong partner. her physical features on a white woman - a big bum, braided hair, big lips - seen as sexy and exciting but not on her.

cultural practises such as FGM, breast ironing, even newborn nose pressing are evil but were and are done by black women to their daughters for their own good. stuff 'making them more marriageable', it was simply because it was not safe for them to stay in their natural states with predatory men around and powerlessness to do anything to those men.

yes it is cruel and unusual punishment. but to me, such cultural practises are the result of internalised racial self hatred of black women. from colonialist and also white and arab slave trader narratives of black women.

young black girls generally go through puberty earlier so get seen as being more ready for sex than other girls because they develop earlier. 'they looked older' is the defence of the rapist and the jury too. street harrassment common but the shape and movement of their own bodies are seen to invite it. fast tailed girls so not worthy of protection.

It's interesting using the fashion argument as l see lots of young girls in headscarves, summer uniform and long leggings on, and arms covered. Clearly they are muslim.

However in dd1 Reception class a few of the Polish girls wear 3/4 leggings under their summer uniform. They are not muslim but l think the parents see how others are dressing and leaning that way.

My only thing with full covering is l would never speak to someone whose expressions l couldn't see so there are a couple of mums that l don't speak with. Also, l wouldn't know if it was the same person when l next see them as they are always all in black.

DoInitFine and Backing:

What do you propose such women should do who are living under a government who has laws that they feel are oppressive?

What's your proposal?

I suggested a democratic way to get rid of such laws. What do you suggest they do?

Why don't women in abusive marriages just get divorced?

Why don't children whose parents beat them just run away?

Why don't trafficked women just stop sleeping with their punters?

Why don't young black men in the US refuse to stop for the police?

Why don't women in the UK vote against two of them being murdered by a partner every week?

Why don't we vote against rape being pretty much legal?

doinitfine you are avoiding the very direct question I asked you. Answer the question and we can continue the discussion. Other wise there's no point in having a discussion.

I am however more than happy to meet you in person to discuss this, and other questions you may have. Do PM me, I'm going into another meeting now, so I'm logging off.

i still reckon those little somali girls are wearing hijab more likely because of hair convenience than anything else. doctortwo also has an idea of the judginess in certain communities of 'your daughter's hair not done'. they'd rather think it was the family's piety then that theyre too harried/hurried to sit and do their daughters hair!

The oppression of women in Saudi, and many other countries, is murderous. Stoning, rape victims flogged, women wearing trousers flogged in passing etc etc. no doubt religion, patriarchy, adherence to a tribal system where parentage of the next generation dictates who rules the Kingdom etc all play a part. All the countries that I know of also practice extreme restriction on a wide range of human rights. Raif Badawi, the minor on death row for being present at a demo et al. So 'changing the law' clearly isn't really an option.

But I fail to see how an independent woman living in the UK who chooses to wear a hijab is endorsing or normalising the violently enforced lack of free choice in Saudi, any more than a SAHM Mn-er who chooses to stay home based to look after her children normalises the kind of domestic house-arrest that women in some countries live with.

And don't get me started on the UK workers and families who go and supply the expertise that enables the Saudis to exert such massive economic power while living in their compounds but obeying the laws when they venture out.

I think the headscarves and long clothing give out the message that women are inferior to men. That their bodies are shameful. That affects ALL women. It might be your choice, but do you ever think about the message you give out to society? Even if I were Muslim and thank God I'm not, I would NEVER wear this as I believe it impacts upon women and how we are viewed in society. Unless of course, I was forced into it as I am sure many women and girls are.

But I fail to see how an independent woman living in the UK who chooses to wear a hijab is endorsing or normalising the violently enforced lack of free choice in Saudi

It's far from being limited to Saudi Arabia.

There are women in the UK who are subject to the same murderous restrictions.

I fail to see how you can fail to see very clear excusing and minimising of the risks to women from cultures that follow Islam as anything but endorsement.

This thread is sbout very small girls being covered in the UK.

And we have had every excuse under the sun trotted out to explain away why that happens and why it is totally fine.

That is endorsement. It is excusing. It is minimising.

There are logical positions that separate head covering for adults and an abusive, misogynist culture. But it is dishonest and disingenuous to pretend that every girl and woman in the UK (never mind the world) who is covered is doing it as a free choice.

I am against any coercion, anywhere, against women if any age. I would fully support the use of our laws to ensure the freedoms and protections that every woman is entitled to.

Freedom, though, must surely extend to the choice of an adult woman to put a bit of cloth over her head without a load of other women telling her what she should and should not do. For the avoidance of doubt, debate, discussion, free speech: all good.

I feel confident that I can listen to an adult independent wan pro-actively decide to put a scarf on her head without that affecting my view of any degree of oppression or compromise on free choice to any female anywhere in the world. My view does not minimise my feelings about the situation of women who live with less choice.

I do not like to see children being persuaded (persuaded, co-erced, forced) to cover their hair any more than I like to see people making their 6 year old girls wear a T shirt for a water fight.

And of course it goes beyond Saudi Arabia, that was an example. Can we talk to each other and trust in a level of education, information and awareness?

Freedom, though, must surely extend to the choice of an adult woman to put a bit of cloth over her head without a load of other women telling her what she should and should not do.

You mean like exactly what happened on this thread?

Nobody said women shouldn't choose to cover their heads.

The disagreement was over whether it is always a choice. Which it manifestly is not.

The conversation was about whether it was acceptable to cover small girls' heads. And whether that is a reasonable clothing choice to enforce on them.

The answer from several women was that it was totally fine to get them used to dressing in a way they woukd struggle with otherwise.

It's hard to see that as anything over than deeply problematic coercion of small children.

timegate it was an observation, not a judgement.

I think you have got unnecessarily shirty with me

It has been said that adult women choosing to cover their heads normalised / minimises the oppression of women being forced to do so ... Which is in turn part of the cycle within which children are co erced.

Sorry, I am posting in sub optimal circumstances. It has been said that adult women choosing to wear hijab are normalising oppression. We can dispute this without supporting the active encouragement and worse if children covering their heads.

Believing that choosing to cover your head with the same garments that other women are forced to wear, and that are part of a system of female oppression, doesn't impinge on anyone's freedom to wear such garments.

Wear them if you want.

Not every choice is a feminist choice.

I don't want people's freedom to wear tiny luttle silver feet brooches taken away.

I still think it is unpleasant to adorn yourself with a symbol of female oppression.

moonstruckl8
I can see how you may have arrived at such a theory, but I'm not sure it stacks up, as it totally overlooks both the prevalence of the practice in non-black countries, and also the clear correlation between FGM and practicing Muslims in countries with mixed religious populations.
For example in Cote D'Ivoire, 75% of Muslim women are cut, compared to 13% of christian women.
There is a similar pattern in most, although not all, countries with mixed religious populations.

If you believe this is done by women because they have self-loathing and fear of attacks by men, you surely have to wonder why Muslim communities are the ones where women hold these entrenched views.

To take your theory to its logical conclusion, Muslim communities are such an oppressive patriarchy that women are conditioned from an early age to hate themselves and fear attacks from men in the community, and believe themselves to be hypersexual in a way that women from non-Muslim communities don't.

Some people really overcomplicate things un necessarily.

Muslim communities are such an oppressive patriarchy that women are conditioned from an early age to hate themselves and fear attacks from men in the community, and believe themselves to be hypersexual in a way that women from non-Muslim communities don't.

Yes, I'd say all this is true.

We need to stop conflating the wearing of a headscarf and female opression.
Yes, some people (men) force body covering as a means of suppression. In others it is freely chosen as a way to follow the path of the words of the Prophet Mohammed. It is not a one size fits all conclusion that can be drawn from it.

Wearing a black abaya and black headscarf in 50C heat is horrendous. And those that choose to go out in bra and knickers and an abaya held together with half a dozen poppers are very very brave. Or perhaps I am just not delicate enough in my movements to keep it firmly fastened rather than flapping round my (trouser clad) legs. And, as a westerner, I can choose to cover my hair or not. Typically not, in my case, unless going to those areas less visited by exats. btw, blu have you ever visited Saudi?, because I think you will find it is a much more complicated place than the western media make it out to be.

I would love to see a world where women are free to wear what they want, do what they want, go where they want. Some places are closer to that than others. Progress takes time and understanding. Some of that can happen by posters such as timegate and others who have eloquently put their views across. Some of it is stiffled down by those with views which are held and reinforced by selective media reporting. Some of it is hindered by regimes around the world who are resistive to change.

This is a far from ideal post, and I hope I don't get ripped to shreds for it. It is about version 179.