Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

Joandmax, I live in East London and regularly see young girls (under 10, some probable 4 or 5) wearing a head scarf. Do you not believe it happens?

I am a Muslim convert, but happily atheist (as is DH) and whilst I agree that there is plenty of discrimination and unfairness in Islam (as in all Abrahamic religion imo) it's not as simple as it's being portrayed here.

When I visit my DH's home country, by law, I have to cover my hair and head. (Usually I do it on the plane). Most "local" women wear the scarf sort of "notionally" ie they drape it over the back of their head while showing hair front and back. I have to make sure every tidbit of hair is covered because the morality police see I am a western woman and make a huge fuss. I have also been bollocked for lifting a long skirt up to my ankles in order to negotiate some steps, when heavily pregnant. Equality?

My SIL was arrested because her clothes were too tight. (She had gained weight). She had to wait in the police station until a male relative could bring her "suitable" clothes. My FIL is dead so that meant dragging her uncle from the hospital where he works to protect her "modesty".

There may be a free choice (or something approximating it) for women in the UK but let's not delude ourselves that it's a free choice for women in countries which operate under Islamic law and mandate the hijab. I feel that hijab-wearers talk about choice but by their actions condone these practices,. That alone makes me deeply concerned about the tendency to adopt the hijab amongst very young Muslim women. It implies an acceptance of the type of forced practices described above.

Incidentally I converted to Islam because as a non-Muslim wife of a national I have no standing under (DH's country's interpretation of) Islamic law. This means that if DH dies, I have no rights to inherit and neither do my DC. I have no say over what happens to his assets - they will be dealt with by the closest male relative. I have no rights over the care of my very poorly MIL who needs 24/7 care and is vulnerable. So I had very little choice other than conversion, even though we are both atheist, eat pork, drink and never go to mosque.

I find my trips to DH's country massively disempowering and I am afraid I laugh hollowly when people try to convince me that Islam means equality for women. When Islamic law applies to everyone, it just isn't. That isn't to say I approve of little girls in bras and bikinis either, but in countries where the hijab is mandatory then yes, ime women are very much second class citizens and non-Muslims are worse.

Blue4ever - I wasn't saying I didn't believe it just that I don't see it here!

guilty thank you!

fuctifino I suspect it's more to do with wealth, given than they are second or third generation? But then again, all my elderly aunties, some born here, and others born abroad, worked throughout their life and still do. But they did do labour based work, mainly from home and tried to fit it around their children (they worked really hard!)

Most of my female Muslim family and friends do work, some part- time and some full-time. However, my sister and bro in-law for example are quite wealthy, and though she is qualified teacher, because she's just got 2 young children under 5, she has chosen not to work.

There is less pressure for Muslim women to work because in Islam, the husband is responsible for paying for rent, food etc and providing for any other needs of the wife and children. This means despite working, most of my female Muslim friends receive monthly cheques from their husband for clothes etc., and probably around half of them (especially those that don't live in London!) don't contribute to rent.

Personally I don't contribute to rent or food, but in the past I have used some money for us to go on holiday. I'm also saving up my money to buy a holiday property for myself :) However, if my husband was struggling, I would obviously contribute to the rent/food, but he sees it as his responsibility to provide for us. This thankfully does give me the freedom to work part-time or leave work altogether, and I have taken short breaks in my career due to difference reasons.

oldfarticus by law of that country they force you to cover when you are in public, have I understood that correctly? I'm sorry to hear that. However, to be clear, that has nothing to do with Islam. The Quran is clear, no one should be forced to do anything, and certainly not a religious practice.

If a country chooses to implement a cultural law, then unfortunately if we visit there we have to follow their law, until the people and government change that law.

Blue4ever I just wanted to clarify that I never said women are given more freedom or rights in Islam than Christianity. I haven't studied Christianity to degree level to be able to make such a comment. I have Christians friends, and I have also attended interfaith events with Christians from different churches, all of whom were lovely, welcoming and seemed very family oriented. In fact my daughter's nanny was a practising Christian, and we love her to bits! (And my midwife also - I won't forget her - awesome woman!)

old farticus, just wanted to reply to your point:

'I feel that hijab-wearers talk about choice but by their actions condone these practices,. That alone makes me deeply concerned about the tendency to adopt the hijab amongst very young Muslim women. It implies an acceptance of the type of forced practices described above. '

Why should hijab wearers in other parts of the world be responsible for a government who stupidly adopts that law? Why am I responsible for that law? That government should be responsible, and people in that country should challenge the government, if they want to.

It is ridiculous and illogical to suggest that just because a very small minority of women are forced to wear hijab because of the law of the law of country they live in, I should not obey the God I believe in, and no longer wear hijab. How does that even make sense? Why should I pay for that country's government's mistakes?

You didn't. Aldrin did.

I think all religions oppress women tbh. I do have a particular concern about women's rights in my area where women are quite clearly not part of the public realm for all the reasons I've stated. It may be that they've chosen not to be in the cafes, be out on their own, establishing themselves as part of the local community. It may be so...but I certainly see evidence of men having freedoms here that women are not participating in.

Yes, that's correct time. And I am going to respectfully disagree with your "it's nothing to do with Islam" comment. All of the countries which mandate women's dress in this way are Islamic. Yes, there are some welcome exceptions (the UAE is one example) where women have a meaningful choice (about their dress, if nothing else, since none of them are exactly bastions of women's rights), but this simply doesn't happen in non-Islamic countries.

I am pleased to hear that it has nothing to do with your interpretation is Islam. I think it is important for Muslims and indeed everyone to stand up for freedom of choice and liberal values. However, it is naive to think that the interpretation of the Qu'uran by the vast majority of countries that operate under Sharia law is somehow "nothing to do with Islam". It is, very much. In just the same way as the homophobia that is prevalent in much of the protestant church leadership in Africa is "something to do with Christianity".

I believe that how other people is no business of mine and certainly nothing to do with the state. (I personally feel very uncomfortable at very young girls in hijab AND women of any age showing a lot of flesh, but that is just a personal view on something that is really none of my business). What troubles me is that the line from "I believe that god wants me to be modest and wear hijab" via "all modest women must wear hijab" to "the law requires all women to cover in public" is blurred. 40 years ago in Iran women had freedom to dress how they wished - some wore hijab, some covered their whole bodies, some didn't cover at all. Now they are forced to cover, bullied by the (male) morality police if they don't comply and locked up if they diagree. That is not progress.

No one can intervene in a personal conversation between you and your god if that's what you think he is saying.

But other countries are using this form of dress as one tool to oppress women. I wouldn't be comfortable normalising that. But then I don't believe in God so I can't really put myself in your shoes. All I can say is that normalising things that are used to oppress women around the world makes me very sad. But your God says you must so that's the end of that discussion.

So do we have an answer? Wearing the hijab is a religious rule. And the reason little girls wear headscarves is because they'll have to when they're older, so it's easier all round to get them used to it earlier in life. Poor little things.

Really no point in wheeling out, "my religion treats women better than yours". All religions seek to control women.

It is ridiculous and illogical to suggest that just because a very small minority of women are forced to wear hijab because of the law of the law of country they live in, I should not obey the God I believe in, and no longer wear hijab.

I don't agree that the entire female population of Iran (Shiite) and Saudi (Sunni) - for starters - is "a very small minority". I travelled to KSA as a non-Muslim and was bullied, hounded, belittled and oppressed by Muslim men as a "westerner" even though I wore an abaya everywhere except my own hotel room. Were they just "obeying the god you believe in" too? And I am quite sure that people there would protest if it wasn't illegal and they were not likely to get arrested for that too. Again, equality? Progress?

Also, calling it a "cultural law" belies the very real influence of Sharia over these countries' decision to mandate a dress code for women. I understand that there is no clear edict from the Qu'uran about whether women are required to veil or there is a more general requirements on both genders to dress modestly. (My good friend who is a Syrian Muslim and chooses not to wear hijab, for example, believes that the whole debacle springs from a misinterpretation of some words of the prophet. Who are we to say she is right or wrong?)

I live in an area with quite a high Somali population and it is very common to see little girls in a hijab, and as others has seen, girls dressed completely inappropriately for hot weather in trousers and tunics, while their brothers wear shorts and t-shirts.

It is on the same spectrum of patriarchal oppression that also means FGM is widespread within the same community. An absolute fear of the idea that girls might have any sexual contact before marriage and become 'shamed' and 'damaged goods'.
There is something disgusting and creepy about a culture (and it isn't a religious thing, it is a cultural one) which sees little girls as sexual or potentially-sexual, and it is disturbing that schools pander to it by issuing uniform hijabs rather than challenging parents on their sick and twisted beliefs.

I saw it to a lesser degree while living in Malaysi and Indonesia, but the parents forcing their girls into hijabs would be self-confessed hardline and conservative so were doing it to make a point. Within the Somali community, it is pervasive and normalised.

All I can say is that normalising things that are used to oppress women around the world makes me very sad.

Exactly. Backing has expressed this so much better than me.

That sadness is compounded when walking around Tehran or Riyadh dressed like a crow, sweating like a pig, feeling invisible and being snarled at by self-appointed guardians of religious morality.

I told my DH that being in his home country felt as though I had woken up in the 1400's. His response? "You have!"

blue I apologise I didn't mean to offend.

But no I've not said I don't want people to judge the religion, I've even said it above I'm all for free speech, my point has always been that against doingit's blatant anti-Islamic rhetoric. If you're out to bash one religion, bash them all. My point were merely comparisons to say "have you had a look at how these religions operate?". What some people say is Islam is so bad but hang on a second, there's other religions which do similar or worse - why not say something about them? If you're truly anti religious you should be against them all, which is not what doingit was doing so I called them out on it.

Never said or implyed Islam is better nor am I looking down at others. They're comparisons in response to a statement made above by someone else. It's infact the opposite, again Islam is the religion that's being critiqued left right and centre by people who choose to believe what's fed to them. Can Muslims not be deeply offended by constantly having to explain themselves and defending their beliefs? It's not a monologue of how superior one religion is. It's trying to equalise the claims being made, they can be made about any other religion too.

I felt incredibly sad for little girls in headscarves last week in 33 degree heat . They were having a great time on a school tour and were just more restricted looking. Why why why ? If it's optional why couldn't they leave it off during the heat wave. Think it's madness but hey ho we are in an inclusive society and whatever is ok with their parents I suppose is of course fine. ( doesn't make it right tho )

Altlas and Pontipines thank you for filling me in on whether modest dress is comfortable in hot weather. Very interesting! I had always wondered about this.

DoInItFine, I'm sorry to break your bubble but the vast majority of Muslim women are NOT treated like second citizens!.

The vast majority of women worldwide are brought up.to be, and are treated as, second class citizens.

You added the word Muslim, not I.

Although is is pretty undeniable that some of the worst abuses that women suffer at the hands of their male abusers take place under Islam.

Give me a break with the whole misinterpretation bullshit and the tiny minorities of women who can just move away from the countries where they are treated as caged animals.

I am genuinely disgusted at your denial of the lived realities of these women that you deny and minimise and ultimately justify.

I'm sure flowing robes are pleasant to wear in some circumstances. In Oman I was very struck by the beautiful crisp white linen robes the men wore. Beautifully laundered and sparkling.

But no face covering. And white so not absorbing heat.

I've yet to meet a physicist who will agree that black fabric covering your face keeps you cool in the heat.

Backing I don't think it's a coincidence that the traditional Arabic kandora is generally white (and worn by men) while the abaya is black or dark coloured (and worn by women).

There is nothing cool or refreshing about an abaya - it's a fabric prison of clammy, sweaty hell.

Indeed. And the white robes looked beautiful and were embroidered. They were about keeping cool and looking good. Lovely. Neither applies to a niqab.

oldfarticus I completely disagree with you. I've got my abaya on today with just underwear underneath, and I love it! It's cool and breezy. I choose the right material of abaya when it's hot, which means it's perfect for me! I'm comfortable in it, that's why I wear. If you don't find it comfortable, don't wear it. Simple.

I wear different colours but I don't like white because my child would probably put her sticky hands all over it, and it'd stain so quickly. So it's a practical choice for me. I know many Malaysian women and women on pilgrimage who wear white abayas.

Those that choose to cover their faces in this heat and in this anti-Muslim climate, I admire their faith, conviction and dedication. You must really believe in God, and in your religion, to make such a huge sacrifice. Kudos to them.

Those that choose to cover their faces in this heat and in this anti-Muslim climate, I admire their faith, conviction and dedication.

And fuck the many that don't choose it but have it enforced upon them.

They can always leave their families and their countries. Simple.

I live near a city with a big Muslim community. However, the scarf wearing has definitely increased. I think it's a sign of piety. The majority are adults though - or at least teens up (hard to tell whether girls are young teens or old when they're wearing a shroud).

Children wearing headscarves seems to go in and out of fashion. At the moment a lot of women are choosing to wear a veil and so their children want to as well.

I've worked with a few Muslims some cover their heads, some don't, only know one who wears the full face veil and she is a convert who when she goes out with her family takes it off because they don't like it.

A few have said they started wearing it when they had their own daughters to be an example to them.

And the way it is worn can be a cultural thing, something that says 'I am Malaysian' or 'I am Somali' - and yes you can tell.

OP do not be scared to talk to women about their choice of headscarf. It can be fascinating, the choice of what material to wear because it is raining / snowing, the style, where you go to get your hair cut, how long or short your hair is. Whether a wig would be a suitable alternative - some married Jewish women cover their hair with a wig - that was an interesting discussion.

OldFarticus I quote a hijab wearing student, "Who the hell would want to live under Sharia law?"

I'm guessing your husband is Iranian - local Iranian cafe owner expressed it to me as"Yeah we're Muslim, but we were forced to be".