Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

Nancy75, a 5 year old?! I think that's bullshit. I just don't buy your story, and none of my friends would. All 5 year old Muslim girls I know wear no trousers and short sleeve dresses in the summer.

There's a big difference between a headscarf (hijab) and niqab (face covering). Please don't confuse the two.

I was thinking about this last week when there was a thread discussing how old is too old for a girl child to be seen in public without a T shirt. The context was a neighbourhood water fight. Many posters felt that 6 , six years old, was the age at which girls needed to wear a T shirt, or a swimming costume. Many posters talked of people (men) looking at them. So, many people believe that six year old girls need their flat, pre-pubescent chests covered.

Doesn't seem very different to me.

Whatatodo, do you get your child to wear underwear in public? Why are you grooming her to wear underwear?

My little girls wear hijab when they play dress up. It's their equivalent of tottering around in Mummy's heels. For me, if they want to wear it when they are older, that's their decision.

Lol at the parent upthread who put her child in hijab to stop headlice, I have some sympathy with that.

I could not agree more with the poster who said to ask us directly. We are human too, you know, not voiceless objects.

Hijab is a religious obligation, as clearly laid out in the Quran and elaborated on in the hadith. I don't know why people come on these threads thinking they can school Muslim women. It's very patronising.

I do not feel oppressed by my hijab, on the contrary, I see it as my crown as a Muslim woman.

However that does not mean, I look down or judge how other women, Muslim or not, dress. Hijab is just one small action, and someone could be better than me in a million other ways.

Also, I am fortunate enough to live in an area where women in hijabs (and turbans) are very common, so I generally don't get any problems. It's not the same in other areas and I can understand why some women don't wear it for those reasons too.

Whatatodo, getting a young girl to wear a bikini at the beach could be argued to be grooming to. Getting a girl to wax her legs and be 'perfectly manicured and pedicured' could be argued to be grooming too. In fact, letting a girl to watch TV ads where a certain body type is pushed could be argued to be grooming too. Are you criticising those actions too?

Male abuse of women is existent in every single country including the UK.

That was exactly my point.

And yet you are trying to claim that female covering is always a freely made choice.

It is a sexist tradition, made in a context of male domination of women, and you are claiming that it is a free choice.

Despite the countries in which it is not even legally permissable to choose otherwise.

Despite the places (including the UK) where there will be violence meted out to non-conformers.

Some women choose it.

Others do not.

It is an insult to the women forced into constant purdah that you pretend this is what they choose when they have no choice at all.

Timegate, think what you like, as I said mums face was covered child was covered apart from face, she was wearing one of the long black coats that are quite fitted (no idea what they are called but have seen them on lots of women) I live in a very multicultural area of London and seeing a child with head covered doesn't really register as it is quite common, the way this child was dressed was unusually conservative in my experience which is why it has stuck in my mind.

It is also an insult to those women who choose to wear purdah to claim they are forced to do so.

Nancy75, so based on your 1 single experience of this happening (and not to the other hundreds of Muslim children you've seen?), why have you assumed that this was a religious practice? Maybe the child gets easily sunburnt? Maybe the child has skin cancer or some illness?

It is also an insult to those women who choose to wear purdah to claim they are forced to do so.

But nobody has done that.

It is just you who us denying and mocking the abuse of countless numbers of women by claimimg they don't exist.

Timegate, given the dress of the mother it seems a reasonable assumption that the child was dressed this way for religious reasons rather than anything else. The child was wearing pretty much the same as her mum but without the face covering.
Actually the thing that really stuck out was the gloves, as I said head covering isn't unusual where I live but black gloves in summer are.

DoItFine, I am not denying it, there's abuse of women in every society, even in the west. My point is the vast majority of Muslim women choose to dress the way they dress, and some conform to societal expectations even if they don't want to. This however happens in all countries. As I said, just have a look at the thread about summer and dress code on MN, there are over a 100 women saying they are not happy with the way they are expected to dress and look in England.

Maybe the mother was having a bad face day.

Or wanted to avoid getting scabies.

And perhaps her daughter needs to wear gloves to stop the skin on her hands falling off because she has flesh eating bacteria.

There is no way it could have been anything other than a totally healthy free choice.

Nancy75, well I can reassure you that it's the oddest thing I've heard, especially the gloves! The mother may have been mentally unwell or there may have been some other reason.
If you read up about Islam, you'll understand why. Children do not need to cover until they reach the age of puberty.

To those who think wearing a scarf doesn't require training, actually it does for some. To suddenly wear it from never having worn it before can be tough.

And no grown women don't wear a scarf because men tell them to, though a few may exist. I actually have a friend who was pressurised by her husband into no longer wearing one. Either way ultimately the woman shouldn't feel pressured by a man.

In our area it seems to be a cultural thing: we have various Muslim communities. We have few African Muslims (though I've lived in an African Muslim area and I know all about the "your hair's not done properly" judgy pants).
The South Asian Muslim mothers based locally range from full niqab to fashion tied hijab to hardly-ever-bother. Girls and boys cover their heads for mosque school (in uniform colours) but it's very rare for girls below about year 5 to do so for school and some younger teens don't.

The South Asian students have the same range of practices but the children in that community rarely cover their heads. They are either from elsewhere in the UK or foreign students from the sub-continent.

The main group I see with very small girls in hijab daily are SE Asian - there's a particular style with a decorated border and in different colours I see on mums and girls of about 5+.

"
Whatatodo, getting a young girl to wear a bikini at the beach could be argued to be grooming to. Getting a girl to wax her legs and be 'perfectly manicured and pedicured' could be argued to be grooming too. In fact, letting a girl to watch TV ads where a certain body type is pushed could be argued to be grooming too. Are you criticising those actions too?"
Yep. I criticise those actions too.

Doinitfine, are you MistressMia by any chance? I'm surprised she's not here to spout anti-Islam/Muslim hate.

Timegate, both parents were with the children. I know it's not the norm & as I said that's why I noticed but it was sad to see the little girl so inhibited by her clothing while her brother was wearing shorts & t shirt.
I believe the gloves are worn by quite a lot of women?( I have seen adults wearing them quite frequently)

Bert, that's good!

Well I can reassure you, for me and my friends, hijab and covering up with a loose gown (jilbab) is very very liberating!

I don't have to worry every morning about shaving my legs, wearing make up, worrying about my hair being perfectly straight/ curled every morning, making sure my legs are tanned, ensuring my dress fits well and is ironed well, and hoping I was size 8.

I leisurely have breakfast, listen to radio 4 and then leave for work. When I do feel like doing any of the above, I do so, but I don't feel any expectation to do them.

I don't look down or pity anyone who feels like society expects them to do above (I can empathise with them), but I am very glad that I am liberated from those societal expectations that make some women's life miserable.

And that's my experience and my friends experience. I am not saying ALL Muslim women feel that way, but I've met over 200 in the UK who do feel that way.

Timegate I would equally be horrified at anyone taking their little girl to a salon to be primped and groomed 'to get her used to it'. It's the other side of the same coin.

And yes of course there are social expectations on all of us but we also ought to be able to think clearly about the ramifications of them and begin to reject them where we think they harm us. Actually I put excessive attention on dressing sexily in the same bucket as wearing face-covering garments. They both require women to define themselves in relation to the male gaze. When no man is being forced to hide from the female gaze or wear ludicrously inappropriate clothes (or no clothes like lap dancers) in order to attract the female gaze. They get on with their lives without reference to any of this. That's the equality I'm striving for.

Nancy75, honestly less than 1% of Muslim women wear niqab (cover their face). From those 1% less than one sixth probably wear gloves. So overall less than 0.2% of Muslim women wear gloves. Maybe you live in an area were there is a high concentration of those 0.2% of Muslim women? Is it a part of east London?

Cross post but this 'empowering' talk is the same language that young women who feel the need to be overtly sexualised also use. It's empowering.

It's always the way.

There's a thread pondering why Muslim women do x and y. When Muslim women come onto it to explain, some people get strangely angry. It's very odd.

Sorry posted too soon. The point is it's all in relation to a gaze. Someone else's gaze. Either hiding from it or performing for it.

The other way is to challenge the supremacy of it.

Oh and btw I don't worry about any of the things in your list. I wash, dress and go to work. I do brush my hair to be fair...,