Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

We live in England for goodness sake

How many girls in England were victims of FGM last year? Can anyine remember?

That we know of.

How many forced marriages?

How many "honour" killings?

You are really making an eejit of yourself pretending that this stuff doesn't happen in England.

DoInItFine

I honestly don't know much about Ireland. And I very much doubt that the comparison was made on the factor you identified, because surely Canada doesn't have that either?

You said:
'So we're clear then, that Islam doesn't consider women to be human beings deserving of human rights.'

After all the discussion we've had and explaining I've done, I'm really disappointed that you could even say such a thing? Seriously?!! You insult my intelligence! Do you really think I would believe in a faith that would consider any human not deserving of human rights? Seriously?!!

I think it's time I called it a day with replying to your comments on this thread, otherwise I'll end up not replying to others on this thread who genuinely have serious questions. Good night and I hope you have a great weekend!

How many girls in England were victims of FGM last year? Can anyine remember?

6000. But to be fair, I think that often IS a cultural thing. It REALLY bothers me that there have been literally no prosecutions. It's passive acceptance.

Doinitfine,

The only eejit i see is you.

Are you saying FGM, honour killing and forced marriages only happen amongst muslims? You should read more.

Bert,
Just to re-iterate, here is the verse from the Quran as evidence:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion. " (Baqarah 2:256)

Timegate, you have been very patient and gracious,. Its people like doinit who dont want to understand, they just want an excuse to air their prejudices as she has done above.

Do you really think I would believe in a faith that would consider any human not deserving of human rights?

I think you believe in a faith that very often fmdoes not treat women as human beings.

And you defend some of those practices.

I also think that you shoukd stop using Ireland as an example of a country that espouses Islamic ideals if you think women should have full human rights.

Clearly the Muslim who suggested Ireland as a wonderful place for women is unconcerned about the legal position of women in Ireland.

Special you are correct, FGM is a cultural thing, and a quick read would tell you so. I'm from an Indian background, and I don't know anyone from an Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi background that has had FGM done. In fact, my mum didn't even know what it was, and was horrified when I explained to her!

I'm not saying that certain communities who happen to be Muslim too don't have their own problems, and I'll be the first to admit their problems. But it's not fair to blame Islam for the problem, when the culture is actually to blame. Let's be fair with the criticism, and that way it'll be easier to get rid of the problem too.

steak thanks steak and others who have been very kind, your words of support is much appreciated. Have a lovely weekend!

Doinitfine,
Timegate linked an article, stating that these countries are mentioned as being closer to islamic values in some ways than many muslim countries themselves. Canada was also mentioned. She didnt say that those countries were a beacon of equality in the world.

Ireland leads the world in Islamic values! 😂😂😂

That is my favourite ever.

Can't decide if it says worse things about Ireland or Islam.

Doinitfine,

You really should educate yourself more. you obviously need a good education. Try to learn more. Read more.

I think it's a very peculiar argument that Muslim women in the UK should be less free to speak about their lives and to openly practice their religion, because of what is happening to women in other countries.

I can't see that argument being made against "Western women" and I wonder why that is.

I also think some contributors on this thread would be much happier if Muslim women weren't on it. Again, I think that is peculiar.

There is also the same reductive viewing of Muslim countries as being solely influenced by Islam, with post-colonialism, economics, geo-politics and lack of political freedom never being considered.

Doin I have issues with religious doctrine and women too, but there's no need to be outright mean to a perfectly lovely poster espousing a different opinion.

IPity, it is a way of othering them and belittling them and shaming them and humiliating them and mocking them and ridiculing them.

Because, as mentioned above, the Western woman fought for her right to wear trousers, now she has the right to dictate to the Muslim woman from the East on how to live and what should matter to her most. She also has theright to dictate to the British Muslim Woman on how to live her life. The Muslim woman just doesnt know what is good for her, her background, culture, experiences, socio-economic status, none of this matters. It is as if she has morphed in a vacuum -no geo political relevance, no post colonial significance, she just doesnt slot in easily and she must conform to the authoritarian, oppressive, aggressive Western woman who is mocking and humiliating and telling the Muslim woman how to live for her own good of course.

I don't think she is "perfectly lovely".

I think she is putting a shiny gloss on utterly repellent and misogynist views.

She has repeatedly made untrue claims about the wellbeing of women.

To claim that women are never coerced or hurt or harmed IN ENGLAND is such an obvious untruth that I do not trust a person who would attempt to make it.

Women in the UK are absolutely not safe from male violence.

And yet she has bern trying to claim for days that Muslim women in the UK are uniquely safe from things that kill 2 of the rest of us per week.

I pointed out a lust of terribke things that befall women and girls in England, with no reference to Islam at all, just to point out that presuming teenagers in England are safe to rebem is horseshit, and then we get more pretence and denial.

"Oh no, those things are CULTURAL."

So what?

They are happening to real people that matter. So don't give me any bullshit ablut how all teenagers in England are safe.

Only the deeply stupid and the deeply dishonest are trying fo make that argument.

I guess I'm reading her posts differently, I think she's only talking about the Muslim women she knows, in her own community.

Of course to deny that there's no faults WRT to religion and women is absurd. I was raised Roman Catholic... Fucked me up for years so I really do get your anger! I just think Time has been perfectly polite (none of the passive aggressive 'niceness' I see in a lot of other deeply religious poster's posts) and your frustration is misplaced.

Time is not the problem, nor is it up to her to solve the deeply, deeply disturbing Islamic countries' laws, any more than it was an individual nun in say, Scotland to stop all the abuse in the Irish Laundries single handedly.

If an individual Scottish nun had been on a 1950s Mumsnet saying that there really were no babies born out of wedlock in Ireland and that on the very rare occasions it happened thry went willingly to be looked after by the nuns. And to have their baby placed with a loving familybwas their fondest wish.

Would her mild politeness make her lies, justifications, and minimisations "perfectly nice"?

I think this is where you have to remember the vast chasm between nice and good.

Being nice is easy. And of dubious moral value.

This thread is about enforcing a restrictive religious/cultural dress code on little girls.

And there has been an awful lot of jusifying of that.

DoinItFine, you are doin a fine job pf being the typical passive aggressive Western female. I am ashamed to be a Western female as I do not want to be associated with you. I want all muslim women to know that not all Western females are like you. We are not all intolerant and we do not all hold all muslim women accountable for world peace. we are not all the same. Oh wait, I do not need to justify myself and highlight the differences between you and I..... But somehow, the muslim woman has to justify every single thing.

You are not better than the muslim woman. You are very much a huge part of the problem. So dont give everyone the deeply dishonest bullshit that you care for real people and that they matter. Your words say otherwise. Only the deeply stupid would fall for your "perfectly lovely" facade.

Go get an education.

Wow, now we have a very george bush-esque view by you Doin. DoinItFine is good and moral, Muslim woman is bad and a liar.

You are the gift that keeps on giving. You hold repulsive and repugnant views about Muslim women. To all the muslim women, we are not all like doinitfine.

Of course there are many Muslim women who choose it. Does that make it any better?

As for little girls choosing to cover, well there are different levels of choice. I knew a Muslim woman who didn't "force" her DD to wear a veil but did hold views that English girls made themselves look like "sluts". So giving her child that message isn't exactly giving her a free choice.

The whole thing is an exercise in pointless argument. God never told any woman to cover in the first place because God doesn't exist. Everyone knows this in their heart really because no one has physically heard from God.

So all this arguing over oppression/ choice is all beside the point.

I am ashamed to be a Western female

Clearly.

Or maybe just ashamed to be a female.

We are second class citizens, after all.

And you seem more than happy with that.

You are ashamed to be a western "female" because another woman is uneasy about the position of women in Islam? How very strange. Obviously time is open and lovely and liberal. But even she says that she expects that her daughter will want to cover when she's older and thinks it's a good idea for her to start young "to get used to it".

I'm uneasy about the position of women in the world.

Islam is just part of that. It is just what this thread is about.

I wouldn't call someome who suggested that women who were forced to cover themselves simply vote to chsnge their laws or move abroad, "lovely and liberal".

Talk about minimising a crime against women.

The removal of their most basic rughts can be waved away with a glib suggestion that they sort themselves out.

We should hsve left apartheid Souty Africa to its own devices, by thst argument.

Slightly OT, but I didn't think women in countries under Sharia law could get on a plane without husband/father's permission?

So even if they want to leave, well, they can't.