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Little girls in headacarves

461 replies

Tallulahoola · 19/07/2016 16:17

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

OP posts:
antiqueroadhoe · 29/07/2016 22:49

I don't know much about Islam. We have quite a lot of Muslim children at the school where I work, a number of whom (not all) wear a headscarf. I do notice at parents' evening that their dads are dressed very Western, while their mums always have the headscarf.

I understand that the expectation is that Muslim men cover themselves from the navel to the knees, while women are expected to be far more covered, including the hair. If Allah created women and men equally, why are expectations of dress not more equal? From what I have read, it is because men can be more tempted by the female form than vice versa, but I don't know if that's the true reason or not.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 29/07/2016 22:49

Just reread my last message....when I said Our Lord, I didn't mean yours and mine!!! It is a Catholic name for Jesus that we use. BlushBlush

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 29/07/2016 22:50

Likewise, Time. It was really a privilege. Smile

Charlieismydarlin · 29/07/2016 22:52

Very ignorant question but where do you find your reading about Jesus in the NT?

I was very impressed by the eloquence of the interviewee about wearing the hijab. She came across exceptionally well. I still completely disagree with the rationale as the command from God to dress modestly is to ensure men aren't inappropriately excited etc. It still requires a women to hide her sexuality so as to avoid undue attention.

This just doesn't work for me. At its most basic, we are infantilising men and sexual attacks are more common in cultures requiring modest dressing by women. We are requiring women's behaviour to change. And does this mean women who don't cover their heads deserve unwanted male attention.

and, as I have bleated on about, I feel it does a great disservice to women who are forced to cover every day.

Strange old world. I see people as people, first and foremost before gender.

timegate · 29/07/2016 22:54

Charlie I honestly don't know much about Iran, and the country's politics to be able to comment. However it doesn't surprise me that some of them come here and choose not to wear hijab. The Iranian regime is well known to be authoritarian, and that always leads to rebellion from its citizens (most of the times quite rightfully!). On the flip side, there have also been regimes that have banned women from wearing hijab (like Turkey after Attaturk), and that is also oppressive. I believe, like a true British, the dress code of humans should never be dictated by the law of that country. People should have the freedom to wear whatever they choose to wear!

pearlylum · 29/07/2016 22:57

Why do Islamic countries have some of the highest rape rates in the world? It seems this covering up isn't working.

timegate · 29/07/2016 22:57

bird thanks for pointing that out, you are right, I linked the wrong one (I'm on my phone and I'm still not used to the small screen!). Here's the right one:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=nYzkHVu6Gwc

Atlas15 · 29/07/2016 22:59

Jesus is mentioned a lot in the Quran. There is a whole chapter called Maryam who you would know as the Virgin Mary. We believe that Jesus was a prophet and not the son of God and that he didn't die on the cross. We also believe that Jesus will one day return to Earth.

We believe in the same prophets as Christians and Jews but we believe that over time the holy books were changed and corrupted.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 29/07/2016 22:59

By the way Time, can I join you in setting up the charity??

hotdiggedy · 29/07/2016 23:00

Why do so many people like to get their knickers in a twist over the fact that some females, young and old choose YES, CHOOSE to cover their hair and maybe their bodies in loose clothing. If it bothers you so much go and ask each and every one of them you see, no doubt you will get a slightly different answer each time.

I wonder how long people will be so flummoxed by it. There's this girl who does stuff on youtube and who knows what else on social media, her name is Dina Torkiya (not sure of spelling). Now I dont really think much of her at all after watching a quite silly youtube video of hers the other day but she hardly looks forced into wearing a scarf. In fact, she seems to quite enjoy it!

timegate · 29/07/2016 23:00

Charlie I don't believe in that 'rationale' for wearing hijab. In fact, many of the Muslim scholars that I have studied with don't believe in that rationale either. It is however quite a popular rationale, even amongst Muslims.

I believe Muslim women are asked to wear hijab because God asked them to. Nothing more, nothing less.

Charlieismydarlin · 29/07/2016 23:00

I do agree that freedom is important. And secularism such as in France isn't necessarily the way forward.

But part of me also worries that such outward marking of oneself can be divisive. There are women at my school gate whose faces are completely covered and thus who live silent lives and who are unable to integrate at all with the other gate parents. This makes me sad - not least for their kids.

And then I see a beautiful head scarf and I agree - where is the harm? And yet, it reminds me that there are people who believe women must modify their behaviour to remain safe from men and to be respectful.

And I try so hard to rationalise in my head that this is ok. And threads like this make me feel better in a way.

But I can never think that this path to ever increasing conservative interpretations of religion is good. It troubles me greatly.

antiqueroadhoe · 29/07/2016 23:03

But why did God not want men to cover up in the same way? Being covered from your navel to your knees is just a pair of long shorts.

timegate · 29/07/2016 23:04

LastGirl I would love that! Smile I need to be brave and leave my day job to start the charity. It's quite a risk to take, and I'm quite risk averse, but I really need to be brave and take the plunge! One day hopefully I'll make it Wink

Don't worry about 'our Lord', I understood first time. We are so used to using our common phrases. Plus I get tired of typing, and start making typos too!

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 29/07/2016 23:07

I don't get the fuss over hijabs, nd I consider myself one of 'those' feminists that get everyone's backs up.

Niquab I hate, understand why no one really believes it's 'choice' to wear and would like to see face covering banned, but even the burqa is completely different in this regard and completely socially acceptable IMO.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 29/07/2016 23:10

GrinThat is so right!! Well, I have worked in the voluntary sector since almost the year dot, and still there for my sins (thanks a lot St Anthony). So when and if you decide to go for it, please do let me know!! I think it is a brilliant idea!!

timegate · 29/07/2016 23:14

antique I honestly don't know why the God I believe in didn't ask men to cover their hair, and only asked women to. I secretly believe he gave men greater tests like having to pay for all the rent, food, clothing etc for the entire family unit! ;)

Charlie that's an interesting comment about the women that cover their face are unable to integrate. Why do you think they are unable to?

I'm reluctant to talk about niqab ( the face covering) on this thread as people sometimes get confused and mix it with hijab (the head/hair covering), and they are both very different.

However, I have a friend who covers her face (wears the niqab). She is the most chattiest person I've ever met (really she can talk and talk!). When I go out with her, she talks more to random people than I do. Anyhow, the last time I met her she was saying it was more difficult wearing niqab now as she was getting a lot more strange looks and people being unfriendly. And I felt sorry for her. But she wants to continue wearing the niqab as she believes that'll bring her closer to God. She's also a feminist, and honestly, when she explains why she wears niqab, how it's her choice and how she alone has the right to choose, I can't see any contradiction.

timegate · 29/07/2016 23:16

LastGirl I will certainly do if I remember (my memory is like a sieve these days!), wish me plenty of luck though please, I need it! Smile

DoinItFine · 29/07/2016 23:18

Niquab I hate, understand why no one really believes it's 'choice' to wear and would like to see face covering banned, but even the burqa is completely different in this regard and completely socially acceptable IMO.

You want face covering banned, but think burqas are fine?

Because wearing a garment that covers everything, including your eyes with a mesh, is OK? Confused

I don't want face covering banned, even having griwn up where face covering is pretty much synonymous with terrorism.

But putting tiny girls in hijab is nor right and not fair.

It is a restrictive cultural imposition.

Let adults decide to embrace the misogynist edicts of male gods.

Don't impose it on little girls.

At least let them imagine they are people for a while.

BertrandRussell · 29/07/2016 23:18

So. I need to be clear about this. All Muslim women are absolutely free to make their own choices about what they wear, how they behave and how they live their lives? There are no constraints on them at all?

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 29/07/2016 23:18

Why do you think they are unable to?

Well for example, I'd never talk to a woman in a niquab as I don't know:
Her age, and that does alter my speaking (eg 18YO vs 80YO)
Whether she feels in the mood to be approached or not as I cannot see her face
Whether she is enjoying the interaction as I cannot see her face
Etc etc

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 29/07/2016 23:20

Because wearing a garment that covers everything, including your eyes with a mesh, is OK?

I have obviously gotten them confused Blush

Sorry! I meant as a multicultural society, I can mind my own business in the one where the hair and body are covered, it's the face covering one I meant I am against.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 29/07/2016 23:23

You'll be fine!!! Better than fine...you'll be GREAT!! You are easily the MOST impressive. just nicest person I have chatted to on here. You (will laugh at this) remind of Jesus. He was mocked beyond words, and quizzed constantly. Yet, He remained calm and perfect.

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 29/07/2016 23:25

BTW I agree hijabs should not be part of school uniform in small children, dressing up as mummy etc is completely different so we agree there Doin

timegate · 29/07/2016 23:25

I know I said I don't want to talk about niqab, but I can't resist now that the it has come up.

I must say I do find it strange though how some people believe women wearing niqab are being oppressed or forced to by their husband to wear one, or are a symbol of oppression. But then these same people deliberately choose to ignore the women with niqab, not talk to them, or even be courteous with them? Aren't you doing a similar thing that you accuse their husbands of doing? Don't you think you are just alienating them even more? I understand completely you are not used to speaking to someone whose face you can't see, but you can still hear them! They are faceless not voiceless (think of how much you enjoy listening to woman's hour on Radio 4!)

Anyhow I've had my weekly dose of MN, so I'm logging off till next week. Back to reality now, and got to plan what to do this weekend with the kids! :)