Does Christian privilege exist in the UK? If so why and what impact does it have?

[SilverBirchWithout]

This idea came up during a discussion in Site Stuff earlier today, where it was suggested it might be more helpful to start a specific thread.

There is strong evidence that Christian privilege exists. Christian views and values pervade our law making, education system, and bank holidays without a doubt. But what about the way society and our upbringing teaches us to recognise and respect people with a faith, at what point is deference to someone's belief damaging to the rights of someone who doesn't share those views?

I personally identify as generally an atheist with strong personal values, a spiritual nature (but not involving any deities or woo) and a mixture of non-conformist influences from my childhood.

I'm genuinely interested in the whole idea of Christian privilege and welcome anyone's views.

"I am a bit conflicted though, in that I do respect a lot of people who hold moderate and reasonable religious beliefs and can find it uncomfortable to be outspoken about someone's faith in the same way as I would (for example) be about a climate change denier"

Isn't that just because in day to day life, people of moderate and reasonable religious faiths do not, as individuals impose their views on other people, and have no impact as individuals on your life? Whereas climate change deniers......

And also, climate change deniers claim scientific evidence for their beliefs- reasonable people of faith, by definition, don't.

It all boils down to:

*Let everyone do what they want personally.

Don't impose your views on anybody else.*

Someone wants to wear a burka? Let them.

Someone doesn't want to have sex outside marriage? Don't then.

Someone does want to have sex outside marriage? Let them.

Two men want to share a bed behind a locked door in your B&B? Let them.

Someone disapproves of all this gay people running around being gay business? Don't shag people of your own sex then, and keep a lid on your disapproval when you're out and about (Including when your own kids decide to come out).

Etcetera etcetera etcetera.....

vdpfamily I can understand why you may feel that, but is that not because it's only in the past few years the issues surrounding same-sex marriage and gay rights have been explored.

If you look at the secular response to Mary Whitehouse, who I cited earlier, and Victoria Gillick's campaigns focussing on sexual promiscuity. Christians beliefs about the manner in which heterosexual relationships were conducted were put critically under the spotlight.

Bernard yes that is certainly true. But there is something more going on that I am finding it hard to express adequately, which I may come back to later.

I guessed the argument about Sikh's being permitted to not wear motor cycles helmets would come up. No doubt sometimes laws are adapted and contain accommodations in order to allow them to be passed. Is this in principle any different to a registrar being permitted to find someone else to officiate at a same-sex civil marriage if they do not wish to themselves because of their Christian beliefs?

I suspect if a Sikh Scotsman ran amok with his Kirpan that privilege would quickly be withdrawn. I doubt they are permitted to wear one when boarding a plane.

I suppose we have all been brought up to "respect" faith. The expectations of behaviour in Church from a very early age for example. Head bowed for prayers- that sort of thing. The idea that Christianity has a right to special privileges runs deep.

And yes, I think there is a fundamental difference between the motorcycling Sikh and the registrar- the Sikh not wearing a helmet is only going to up damage himself. The Registrar's behaviour has an effect on other people.

Although I am prepared to bet that informal arrangements go on in Registry Offices all over the country so that Bob doesn't have to marry the gay couple..............

There is a lot that individuals can do to change privilege using democratic process, campaigning and raising awareness so the issue is brought under the spotlight.

Don't disparage debate though. Discussion and hearing others view points is healthy. Doing it on a forum such as this with a cross-section of views is a great opportunity to clarify you own ideas, whilst not causing offence in RL, giving people the opportunity to vent or walk away from the discussion at anytime

Silver, you will be long dead before this country ceases to be known as Christian. Reliable forecasts state that, in 50 year's time, we will still be a Christian country. Hurrah!

I think that there is now a chasm between many true, active Christians, and the entrenched cultural Christianity (for want of a better expression) that pervades the UK. I'm atheist, but friends with a trainee vicar and her vicar husband, who are the gentlest most helpful, non judgemental people you could wish to meet - excellent representatives of their belief system.
The problem we seem to have is the legal system and hatred engendered in the name of Christianity, mainly by straight white men. That's the unacceptable bit we need to fight, destroy, etc. I think all parts of the world suffer from the laws and culture created by the rulers in the name of their religion.
A tiny, unimportant example here - I was at a convention a year or so back; at the beginning of the main dinner, the chair stood up and said a prayer - fairly bland and non denominational, so they assumed it was fine. That's Christian privilege.
I am incensed at the awful laws in NI.
(apologies, unwell, not thinking straight)

Annie, female vicars are unscriptural.

"Silver, you will be long dead before this country ceases to be known as Christian. Reliable forecasts state that, in 50 year's time, we will still be a Christian country. Hurrah!"

So nice to have a constructive well argued contribution to the debate!

39 you sound a bit gleeful about the thought of my death!

Can you post a link to those reliable forecasts?

No! I didn't mean to sound gleeful about your demise! I will try to link to the article...

Bertrand, I'm not here to be intelligent or debate; I've seen these privilege threads a thousand times and nothing will convince me you are not haters of God.

As a christian, I am a feminist, I'm against faith schools, I am pro-choice, I believe in gay marriage - etc etc. My views count as "Christian views" as much as any other Christian, since the key qualifier is faith in Jesus. I believe in evolution and the big bang, I'm pretty liberal, I don't evangelize, and I don't agree with a lot of the privilege Christianity does hold in this country. I believe in the separation of church and state. I disagree with every one of the items on your list of Thurs 0:55, Silver. We (moderate, liberal Christians) exist.

BUT I also don't feel at fault for the views of other -more fundamentalist- Christians, and I'm frustrated and offended when I'm blamed, or held to account, for them. I'm frustrated when non-Christians tell me what "Christian views" are, or talk of a "Christian influence" or a "Christian movement". I share one characteristic with these people, but that doesn't mean I speak for them.

Though many of these fundamental groups, in a similar way to ISIS, proclaim their views under the banner of religion, it's not fair or right to blame the majority of moderate religious people for their actions. It's not a "taking sides" question.

The forecast is 45% Christian and 39% no religion, but I think Christian privilege will still stand; not every atheist hates Christianity or God and most take no issue with privilege.

Spiders, May I ask why you would choose to call yourself a Christian, when Jesus claimed to be God and God claims to be the Creator?

Annie that's a interesting post. Taking that a little further, you can add the idea that it's in the interests of all moderate Christians that we take steps to remove Christian privilege from out civil institutions and culture.

On the subject of Christian customs that irritate, is the serving of fish on Fridays in the canteen at the place I work. There is no other hot food option, the alternative options of salad and sandwiches always sellout fast. The caterers always say 'we can't make more as we have all this fish to sell'. FFS stop providing fish as the only hot option then..

Thanks Spider you expressed that point far better than I did in my last post.

Hi 39 - I think most Christians (including the pope -www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-9822514.html) believe in evolution....

OK so is it fair to say we can split the interested groups in this debate into broadly four groups:

Christians with fundamental beliefs - who will actively dissent any move to a more secular society.

Moderate Christains - who are comfortable with moves towards a more secular UK, as long as their rights to their faith are protected.

Moderate Secularists - who wish to effect changes but do not want to damage people with a faith's individual rights

More extreme Secularists - who struggle with acknowledging the opinions of people with a faith

I guess there are a few peripheral people who are following agendas that are about racism and bigotry or just like causing offence. There are also people of other faiths who may have differing opinions from any of the above groups.

"haters of God"

How can I hate something I am certain doesn't exist?

itsmine actually the majority of customs around Christmas have very little to do with Christianity

I'll give you the point about fish though.