Does Christian privilege exist in the UK? If so why and what impact does it have?

[SilverBirchWithout]

This idea came up during a discussion in Site Stuff earlier today, where it was suggested it might be more helpful to start a specific thread.

There is strong evidence that Christian privilege exists. Christian views and values pervade our law making, education system, and bank holidays without a doubt. But what about the way society and our upbringing teaches us to recognise and respect people with a faith, at what point is deference to someone's belief damaging to the rights of someone who doesn't share those views?

I personally identify as generally an atheist with strong personal values, a spiritual nature (but not involving any deities or woo) and a mixture of non-conformist influences from my childhood.

I'm genuinely interested in the whole idea of Christian privilege and welcome anyone's views.

I think the principles of treating all faiths equally are important as is free speech.

But you know that's nonsense surely!! Imagine I adopt a religion that requires me to not speak to a black person. Are you saying l should be allowed to ignore black people if I'm on a checkout in Asda? It's the specific beliefs that a person chooses to cherry pick that should be tackled. I know many Christians who fully support gay marriage/relationships so you can't make a blanket statement about someone of a certain religion. I also know atheists who are very much homophobic so it needs to be about how a person treats people that matters.

Christianity will be marginalised if the numbers of Christians continue to decline though. If you look at the Scottish census results I quoted unthread, people of no religion is the fastest-growing group. If the numbers of non-believers continue to rise and th number of Christians continue to decline, then marginalisation is a natural consequence of that trend. And quite right too.

If 90% of a group only want to eat pasta, you go to a pasta restaurant. But if over time 40% of that group start to like fish and chips, it's right and fair fish and chips make an appearance on the menu. Then if the balance tips further, fish and chips becomes the majority choice and therefore the choice most offered.

Pearl clutching about this is privilege in action...

Everyday I encounter negative and offensive comments online, in newspapers and in everyday conversations about Muslims, their values and beliefs. However many times you say it, it is fundamentally untrue that Christians face more open critisim than Muslims.

Couldn't agree more. Speaking from an impartial (woolly pagan) viewpoint, I find it appalling how Islamophobia has become normalised over the last few years, in society at large, in the media, and- yes- on Mumsnet.

Twelly mentioned earlier about feeling marginalised.

I'd interested to know whether that is because the same rights are being given to others with different beliefs? Or is it because Christian influence (which I would call privilege) is reducing in many aspects of our lives? Or is it as a consequence of less and less people identifying as Christian? Or is it something else?

How can we prevent people feeling marginalised through a period of change. What is it that Christians fear?

"I have avoided using specifics as I think the principles are important. Many people are now frightened of giving there views in "reality" - free speech is threatened which makes for a worrying society."

Well, if you won't give specifics there is no debate, is there

I find it very ironic when the EDL/Britain First types say "We are a Christian country! You can't take out Christianity away from us! This is discrimination against Christians"... whilst advocating for banning the burkha and tearing down mosques.

There is another thread on P&R running at the moment discussing the level of fact and truth in the OT, and how the vengeful cruel God of the OT is perceived by modern Christians.

The discussion is quite theological in nature but there has been some discussion about 'the sin of homosexuality '.

I wonder whether it is this sort of fundamental belief that causes the most friction in a society which on one hand wishes to afford all the same rights of respect and freedom of expression, but cannot when one of those group's beliefs are offensive and dangerous to another.

IMO the only way this can work is in a truly secular society which protects the rights of everyone equally and no group is permitted to have more influence than another. This will no doubt result in specific people feeling somehow 'marginalised' if their influence is less it was in the past. Whilst in reality they had an unfair level of influence.

I can remember Mary Whitehouse and the NVALA (a Christian movement) back in the 1960s campaigning against permissive liberalism in the media and entertainment industry. The were able to control much of what we watched and listened to through their campaigning. Thank goodness times have changed. They even gave Jimmy Savile an award for his wholesome TV programmes.

Sorry for mentioning Savile. His name appearing on a discussion has become like a new Godwin's Law

You cannot give all views equality as they are fundamentally opposed. Equal rights for homosexuals, for example, is against the teaching of most religions. If you give equal rights to homosexuals, and force Christian (or Muslim or Jewish) service providers to provide this, you are infringing 'religious' rights. If you don't, you are infringing gay rights.
There is no third way, society must decide what is the most important position and the other group must suffer the consequences.

And this is where we reach the point where a religion or group that has special power and controls can exert influence beyond their remit on a section of a society that does not share that belief.

I think we can all agree that the cultural practise of FGM is an unacceptable practise, (despite that 137,000 women in the UK have been subject to that unspeakable procedure). We can also all agree that for a parent to beat a child because they believe them to be possessed is also not acceptable.

But what about the performance of the bris on a 8 day old baby? (An example of Jewish privilege, I guess)
Or women being denied access to abortion in NI?
Or messages on boards outside a church proclaiming 'homosexuality is a sin'?
Or access to schools funded by our taxes giving preference to people of certain faiths?
Or access to shops being restricted on specific religious days?
Or women being spat at and caused additional distress when they are exercising their right to attend an abortion clinic?

"I think the principles of treating all faiths equally are important as is free speech. I believe that Christianity is being marginalised. I think citing specifics are not always helpful as each example is almost anecdotal."

So are you saying you believe that Christiqntiy is treated less favorably than other faiths? I don't agree with you- 'but I'm not sure how we can discuss this if you don't want to give examples....

How do these things get changed though, rather than constantly listing them on a parenting forum

The two aren't mutually exclusive and discussing social issues on the busiest parenting public forum in the UK is a very good way of raising awareness of something you hadn't thought about. I've changed my mind on many things after following a debate here on MN and elsewhere which has led to me changing my behaviour in RL.

Silver - not sure how a bris is Jewish privilege. There are tens of thousands of circs a year in the UK, almost on on minors, and probably only 5% are britot. And anyone can have it done - not restricted to Jews or Muslims. And the law here is the same almost everywhere in the world, including in places where there are very few or no Jews....

samG76 interesting. I take your point. I wasn't aware of those statistics, it sounds the circ is a cultural practise rather than specifically a Jewish one. In the spirit of even-handedness I have been searching around in my mind for non-Christian faith examples of privilege..

I think part of the free speech issue is that things that Christians believe are twisted by non-Christians to discredit Christianity. I was pondering this yesterday. I believe the Bible teaches that sexual intercourse should only take place within marriage. I should be free to believe this providing I do not force my views on others or treat them badly because they are not obeying my rules. Christians should be known by the love they show for humanity around them. I have no problem believing that the Bible teaches one thing and most of society do not follow this. But I don't understand how this gets turned into Christians must be homophobic for holding this view and must hate gay people. There are plenty heterosexuals having sex outside of marriage but Christians are never accused of being heterophobic and hating heterosexuals. Can anyone explain this to me. Christians do not expect non-Christians to believe what they do and we are clearly told in the Bible not to judge how unbelievers live.
It is the same issue with abortion for Christians as most believe that life is sacred. However,most Christians I know would be loving and supportive of whatever choice a woman made and would just want her to be clear that if she was feeling desperate and abortion seemed the only solution, that she had their support and love whatever. And yet to express that you are anti abortion is seen as women hating etc etc and so people become afraid to say what they think.
I think it is stuff like this that makes Christians feel marginalised.

Itsmine - you have no idea what other people do in real life. And going on about people being "so angry" when as far as I am aware nobody is angry is a short step from talking about "frothers". Which is silly.

Vdbfamily- you are, of course free to believe anything you like- you are not free to act in a way which is against the law of the land. But I am afraid many people of faith are not as tolerant as you are. Many people of faith do speak out and campaign against the very things you say you are completely tolerant of. And do it in the name of their God. And I think you are naive to say that those Christians who are not tolerant of gay people are not tolerant because they do not approve of sex outside marriage..............

Silver - there was a time when Sikhs were exempt from the requirement to wear motorcycle helmets. Not sure if still the case, but I suppose that's an example. I think they are also allowed to carry a kirpan in circumstances where non-sikhs might be charged with carrying an offensive weapon. I can;t say I'm bothered by either of these.

I'm not part of any specific secular movement.

Although I do my bit campaigning on a number of wide-ranging issues that concern me such as poverty, the environment, rights for truly marginalised people, women's rights and mental health.

I also do voluntary work raising funds for a well-known charity that helps and advocates for those living in extreme poverty and a local environmental group.

For me (although I've probably always had concerns about the way religions can control and badly influence people's lives and rights) I've only just encountered the concept of Christian privilege in the UK (following on from the debates on same-sex marriage) and wanted to explore the problem.

I suppose my future actions will be on specific issues such as women's rights in NI to access the same services as the rest of the UK.

Slightly off topic but Scots are also allowed to carry a skean dhu when they wear the kilt Sam. I'm now tickled by the thought of Sikh Scots having a kirpan on one side and a skean dhu on the other...

I am a bit conflicted though, in that I do respect a lot of people who hold moderate and reasonable religious beliefs and can find it uncomfortable to be outspoken about someone's faith in the same way as I would (for example) be about a climate change denier.

I am interested in exploring personally whether that discomfort is because I have had some of that Chritian privilege influence in my social conditioning or whether religious faith merits some special treatment. That's why it is a shame that people are reluctant to talk about their feelings of being marginalised.