Did God Actually Command OT Brutality

[headinhands]

More to the point how do you believe in an all loving God but have such passages in the bible?

Have your opinions changed over the course of your faith?

[HeHasRisen]

I think believe what you want about God but don't try to make the Bible make sense

The problem with believing what you want about God is that you are making up your own religion.

Most atheists who claim to have once been believers were most likely following what they want about God, no wonder it didn't get them anywhere!

We have this awful false idea these days that everyone can make up their own religion and they're all right or all wrong. This is absolutely not the case. If you think about it rationally, they contradict, so that is a big clue in itself.

One person says "I want to believe about God that he doesn't exist" and another person says "I want to believe about God that he does exist." The problem we have here is that God can't both exist and not exist at the same time!

The bible says "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death". Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me"

Like I said about the ants death circle, be careful who you follow!

[headinhands]

God made a perfect world and sin changed it.

I would avoid making a choice that led to worldwide suffering.

[HeHasRisen]

Fyaral, can you give me a chapter and verse for your claim that God accepted many gods? It really is not there in the bible.

Also, Christianity in terms of what the bible says, remains the same. What might change is how diligently people apply that word to their daily lives, but that is a reflection of the heart of the people and not of the God in the bible (where Christianity comes from). Big difference.

[HeHasRisen]

Headinhands, do you mean if you were Adam or Eve you'd have made a different choice, so as not to sin, and so as not to allow sin to enter the world of man for the first time?

I don't think you can say you would. Not really. The truth is, that unless you were Adam or Eve, I don't see how you can possibly say what you'd have done.

[JassyRadlett]

JassyRidlett, I personally wouldn't choose to follow the "one school of thought" you describe, when it contracts the entire bible, which is consistent in that there is only one God and not the option to follow after any false god that you fancy.

Which version of the bible are you talking about?

It is unsurprising that the holy book of a faith is consistent with the core tenets of that faith.

Any belief that the bible isn't cohesive is a complete misunderstanding, because it is an entirely cohesive whole.

Which version?

I wonder what makes you say that? It fits perfectly together, the old testament within the old, the new testament within the new, and the old testament within the new testament and vice versa. It is a book that would be impossible for so many different writers to manage to be so cohesive

Why, when what was considered divinely inspired and what was not was the decision of men, based in significant part on the need for consistency, and translated by men, driven by that self-same need?

[headinhands]

Most atheists who claim to have once been believers were most likely following what they want about God,


To believe in a god who I think is better than me (what other God is there) I need to know it is more loving and merciful than me because I have seen that understanding and acceptance is so fundamental to people's wellbeing and their ability to have healthy relationships.

[MadameCholetsDirtySecret]

My issue with god is that to reach heaven we have to die and for many many millions of people, the process of dying is horrific. Murder, war, terrorism, disease, accident. Why couldn't god have ensured that we all experience death as a positive experience without fear and pain ? Well, I think it is because god doesn't exist, but I do wonder what religious people have to say about this?

[Fyaral]

I don't know enough Greek or about the NT to discuss Matthew 4 properly. My point still stands that it is a Christian interpretation which would not have been meant by the (many and varied) OT authors.

I guess it depends how you view the book. I don't believe in God and view the Bible as a fascinating historical/literary document. It shows us much of the views of the past.

Some themes are consistent throughout like strict monotheism but others are varied and at odds. E.g. very few people stick to all the rules in Leviticus anymore or even everything St Paul commanded e.g. women not speaking in church.

[HeHasRisen]

I use the NASB and NIV, though I am aware that some versions have the odd word here and there which can be misused or misinterpreted. But only the odd word here and there, and if you take a verse, the difference between them seems negligible. The meaning is the same if you put it in the right context.

New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Study Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Literal Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

International Standard Version
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

NET Bible
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God loved the world in this way: so much that he would give up his Son, The Only One, so that everyone who trusts in him shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.

New American Standard 1977
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

King James 2000 Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

American King James Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

American Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

Darby Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.

English Revised Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Webster's Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Weymouth New Testament
For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.

World English Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[headinhands]

following what they want about God,

How did you decide the biblical Christian God was the God without making some sort of personal judgement about it? You must have felt some sort of alignment between its and your values? What were the values you held that led you to feel the Christian God was something superior and perfect?

[HeHasRisen]

Fyaral the Levitical laws are no longer followed because they were symbolic. It was their way to get right with God when they were living under the age of the Law.

Now (since Jesus died) we are under Grace and don't need the symbolism. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice and atoned for all our sins. "No longer under the Law but now under Grace" - Romans 6:14.

[Fyaral]

HeHasRisen

The followers of YHWH do not accept other gods. The YHWH cult likely moved over hundreds or thousands of years from polytheism to monolateralism to monotheism. The OT books represent the point of view of the monotheists battling against the people tempted back into polytheism. This can clearly be seen with the golden calf, the prohibitation of asherah poles, denouncing temple prostitutes, victories over Baal etc.

[Fyaral]

But Matthew 5:17-18 suggests you should follow the Law until the end of heaven and earth. Why listen to St Paul instead of Jesus?

[HeHasRisen]

headinhands, my journey wasn't about me trying to align my morals with a religion that fitted best with them.

I had previously been an atheist for a long time. I had been brought up in a religious environment and had rejected the falseness of that. My journey was to first hear that the God I thought I was rejecting, was not the God of the bible. This was news to me because people had misquoted the bible in their effort to sell their false god. I thought I was rejecting the God of the bible! Then I heard verses like the one I have quoted to Jassy above, and I saw that we can't earn our way to heaven by our good works, otherwise it would say "Whosoever goes to church/whosoever gives to charity/whosoever is kind to animals" but it doesn't. It says whosoever believes in him.

This led me to looking into what it really means to believe. I looked up in dictionaries the word believe and found it used phrases such as to trust in, and rely upon, with full assurance. I saw that if I am to honestly believe in him, I am not believing in myself and my own works.

I then began to test the bible. I researched some of the prophecies and found to my amazement they were true. I deliberately checked using secular sources to verify, and found that historians validated what I was reading.

Next I began to "hear the word" and be challenged by it. I heard that if you don't trust God's love then you won't trust his rule, and I saw this was me all over. I was trusting God for my eternal life, but not for when things go wrong in my life and it feels like God's rule has been messed up badly (mostly because I didn't like what his rule was allowing in my life!).

Gradually I began to read more about God and align my morals with His. I find I do things that God tells me not to, and now that I've read them, I have a prickle of guilt when I do it, which is God's way of reminding me that it's not what He wants for me. I am talking about times when I want revenge instead of forgiveness, or times when I say harsh words or swear in front of the kids, that sort of thing. I suppose you could say that as time goes on and as I learn more about God, I see things more through his eyes. So I see people as needing him and I know I am in that same place spiritually, so it makes us all much more equal.

[headinhands]

Now (since Jesus died) we are under Grace and don't need the symbolism. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice and atoned for all our sins. "No longer under the Law but now under Grace" - Romans 6:14.

Why would a being 'outside of time' need to change, how was this being okay with slaughtering babies in 2000bc, but in 2000ad it has finds it abhorrent? Isn't time immaterial to it?

Do you feel it is moral to deliberately kill a whole nation?

[headinhands]

risen can you give me a specific example of a moral decision you make now that you couldn't before you chose a religion?

[JassyRadlett]

HeHas, you're missing a much more fundamental issue. You appear to follow the Protestant Bible. I'm sure you're aware that the bible you follow was created during the Reformation, when men decided that certain books of the bible people had been following for over a thousand years weren't so holy after all. And one man (Martin Luther) tried to ditch Hebrews as well.

There has never been a single, agreed version of the bible used by all Christian sects. Different sects took what was most useful or appropriate for them.

It's not 'a few words here or there' or an issue of translation. The problem is that there is nothing one can point to and say - that. That is the agreed word of the Christian god, and the one we must follow.

[headinhands]

mostly because I didn't like what his rule was allowing in my life!

Not sure what you mean, could you elaborate?

[HeHasRisen]

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Law related to the Pentateuch (first 5 books of the OT) and the prophets refer to the prophets in the OT, includes Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, plus the so-called Minor Prophets starting with Hosea and ending with Malachi, and the books of Joshua, Judges, I and II Samuel, I and II Kings.

In other words, the law and the prophets equals the old testament. Jesus says he has come to FULFILL them, and that they won't disappear until EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED.

Everything was fulfilled and accomplished when Jesus rose from the grave, having died for our sins, once, and for all.

[HeHasRisen]

Why would a being 'outside of time' need to change, how was this being okay with slaughtering babies in 2000bc, but in 2000ad it has finds it abhorrent? Isn't time immaterial to it?

I don't know why God had different dispensations for his people, but just because I don't know why doesn't mean it didn't happen. Killing babies was not ok in the OT but in the same way that in WW2, innocent people got killed, unfortunately destruction of war often results in such death, in an imperfect world. I am not saying WW2 was God's judgement by the way, in case anyone misunderstands. I am saying that if God used a war to destroy a nation as a judgement then He is the judge of the nations, not me. He is my judge, I am not his!

Do you feel it is moral to deliberately kill a whole nation?

Not for you or me, but God is the key holder of life and death, and his ways and thoughts are not mine. He is a God of love and mercy but at the same time a God who has to judge. This is where I trust Him, because He is much bigger than me (or you).

[HeHasRisen]

can you give me a specific example of a moral decision you make now that you couldn't before you chose a religion?

Nothing springs to mind but I have a lot of things going on here tonight and will give it some thought.

mostly because I didn't like what his rule was allowing in my life!

Not sure what you mean, could you elaborate?

Yes, I had some terrible things happen to me in life, and have currently got some really hard things going on. Over time I've seen it as God not caring for me or making a mistake because His will (rule) has allowed it to happen. But now I see that I wasn't trusting His love.

I knew the verses that said God cares for us and that all things work together for good, were there in the bible, but I said in my heart "phhhhmph! Might be true for everyone else but obviously not for me!" and I took issue with that, and felt angry at God for letting me suffer so much.

Then once Ii realised I wasn't trusting in his love, I asked God to make my faith grow and help me to genuinely trust in him. I knew if I believe this thing called the bible then I have to believe all of it, I can't cherry pick! So I grabbed it with both hands and began to choose to trust in it, no matter how it felt and pretty soon, I began to feel differently too.

[HeHasRisen]

Jassy, the old testament is based on Judaism as I am sure you know. So that is corroborated with the dead sea scrolls, which are incredibly accurately reflected in the modern day bible. SO it sounds like your issue is that of the NT?

IF you can find me a common version (perhaps from one I linked earlier?) that is vastly different from another one, to the point that it says extremely different things, then I'd of course be interested to hear it. But as far as I know no such thing exists.

[Fyaral]

But thats not what it says HeHas. Until heaven and earth have disappeared. That hasn't happened yet -looks around-.

The earliest Christians were Jews remember and would have mostly followed the Law. Paul opened it up to gentiles which was something Jesus was unlikely to consider. St Paul had to drop the Law as very few gentiles would agree to be circumcised.

[headinhands]

es was not ok in the OT but in the same way that in WW2, innocent people got killed, unfortunately

But if Churchill had specifically ordered the British troops to make sure all the babies in Dresden were killed would that seem justifiable? And if Churchill suggested they spared female virgins they fancied?

I get that humans aren't perfect but I can't worship a God who did things I find specifically disgusting. It would understand that, being so wise and all.

[Fyaral]

Also the first Christians believed the second coming of Jesus was going to be really quick. Within their lifetimes and the early literature reflects this.

Also consider the age of the gospels. Mark was first but still about 30 years after Jesus death. Matthew and Luke much later and John later still. No first hand accounts. Each with their own motives and therefore differences and bias.

What about the apocraphal gospels? Why does the council of Nicea get to decide what you believe? And later convocations to decide changes. Why do we follow Genesis instead of Jubilees? They are about contemporaeous. Why the Synoptics and John instead of the gnostic gospels?