AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

The studies I've seen are mainly linked to CofE and RC - which are the vast majority of faith schools.

Wouldn't religious parents feel justifiably aggrieved if their children didn't get in to a faith school because a middle-class organised atheist parent had beaten them to it though?

Why are they worth more or less? Why should faith be a special category, and not race or sexuality?

As I've said, I favour lotteries with a degree of demographic smoothing.

I thought it depended where you were?

The Eastern European influx is big enough to change the class demographics of the RC church. And arrivals from Africa have certainly changed the Protestant one in some areas at least.

I know of a church school which priorities children who attend any place of worship regularly, not just Christian churches.

"Why should faith be a special category, and not race or sexuality?"

A mixture of history and the laws on ownership of property.

The option is always open to the government to buy out the school owners.

No government has wanted to do this (indeed new Labour was very keen on more opening up). And I'm not sure it can be afforded at the moment, or at least not without something else losing its priority for spending.

Wouldn't religious parents feel justifiably aggrieved if their children didn't get in to a faith school because a middle-class organised atheist parent had beaten them to it though?

No, not really. If an atheist was keen to take on board the ethos of a religious school then good luck to them. An inclusive admissions policy also gives more of a chance to religious parents who nevertheless aren't able to, or choose not to, attend their place of worship every single week simply to compete with other potential applicants.

Could you imagine Christian dr surgeries that prioritised Christians over those of other faiths. There should be no place for religious discrimination in civil services in 2016

FWIW when my DC were starting schools I had no religious faith but I would have been glad to 'take on board the ethos of a religious school' had one been as accessible as the local state school but I think I'd feel guilty if my DC took the place of children from a faith family. Faith is central to many people's identity and behaviour choices.

Surely (most of ?)the point of faith schools is to cater for parents who wish to have their DC educated in an environment that supports and promotes their values. If DC from faith families aren't offered places due to places being given to DC from non-faith families that's a reason, IMO to open more faith schools. Faiths mostly teach tolerance, compassion and forgiveness as far as I can see.

Faiths mostly teach tolerance, compassion and forgiveness as far as I can see.

Those are not values specific to faith though. Those values are intrinsic in my setting and I've never had to mention a religion. Faith schools are funded by taxes. How is it fair that I pay for a civil service that my children would be less able to access because I don't believe in a religion? If I opened a wholly secular school the religion of the parents wouldn't come into it when allotting placements. I have seen many posters of faith agree with the secularisation of education.

supports and promotes their values

What are the differences between Christian and secular values?

I suppose in the case of many schools it's a matter of emphasis and priorities rather than specific differences. Faith schools need not be Christian btw.

Most taxpayers pay for all sorts of services they'll hopefully never use and presumably don't begrudge others.

No government has wanted to do this (indeed new Labour was very keen on more opening up). And I'm not sure it can be afforded at the moment, or at least not without something else losing its priority for spending

I agree - politicians are spineless on the issue. Never ceases to amaze me that they can bang on about integration and inclusion, and in the same breath promote segregation in schools.

Most taxpayers pay for all sorts of services they'll hopefully never use and presumably don't begrudge others.

I'd have more sympathy for this argument if (a) provision were more linked to need and (b) if the provision of faith schools for parents who want them was neutral in impact.

However, not every RC, CofE, Sikh, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu parent is going to have a school catering to their faith in their community. Many will have to send their children to a community school or to a school of a different faith (most likely to be CofE). Conversely you get concentrations of CofE schools in particular that bear no resemblance to local demographics - encouraging the out-of-catchment people.

On the second point - faith schools aren't just useful . As the current admissions system runs, they take fewer of the poorest children than they should - based on who lives within their nominal catchments. They exclude local children from a local education.

The current set-up clearly has its problems. But they don't take anything away from the principle of providing faith schools IMO.

I find it odd, but then I didn't grow up here. In most countries religions survive just fine without the privilege of the state paying for their children to be taught that faith at school simply as part of historical privilege.

10% of people attend church regularly. A third of schools are faith schools. There's a major mismatch already - and that's before you get to the fact that provision is not matched to perceived need.

I just don't get why the state needs to be in the business of promoting faith. If it feels it does need to be in that business, i think admissions need to be an awful lot fairer and more uniform. As it is, it's legalised religious discrimination and segregation, with unpleasant racial and class segregation overtones as well, if people feel that religious discrimination is ok.

FWIW I live in Scotland and I'm really glad I don't have to try to wade through the English school admissions thing. First schools, middle schools, junior schools, primary, secondary, academies, free schools, sixth-form colleges; what a nightmare! In Scotland a much higher percentage of pupils go to their nearest school. I think there are many fewer church schools, all/mostly Catholic - apologies if wrong. There's a catholic teachers' qualification.

I can't find it in me to begrudge parents the choice of going to a faith school if religion is important to them.

I'm just catching up on the thread - that's very interesting research AlanPacino

I would think it very wrong if schools sought to remove RE from their curriculum. In a diverse society, I think it's more important than ever. Both the comparative religions aspect and the morality/ethics/philosophy aspects. carltonscroop

Why do you think RE is necessary in order to teach ethics and philosophy? I agree though that it's important to teach comparative religion.

Never ceases to amaze me that they can bang on about integration and inclusion, and in the same breath promote segregation in schools.

I know! A mystery to me too!

I am at atheist schools being illegal.

I didn't give it much thought until I had children but it does seem strange now.

rogue, Sorry, I'd forgotten that Scottish schools had a different system. Excuse my references to the UK here when I should have specifically said England.

I think there are many fewer church schools, all/mostly Catholic - apologies if wrong.

I can't find it in me to begrudge parents the choice of going to a faith school if religion is important to them.

Would you be okay if Presbyterians ran some Scottish state schools?

Some years ago this was proposed when The Free Church of Scotland wanted to create faith schools based on Presbyterian principles.

These are Presbyterian principles.

Personally I think Education Scotland's religious and moral education sounds rather more open and balanced. Especially the sections towards the end of the page. That's what we really need to be aiming for surely?

'What are the differences between Christian and secular values?'

That sounds like a good basic ethics question. Finding a basis for morality without faith is much, much harder. Not impossible, but you come out with different reasons for doing things. This article points to some of the difficulties with the new atheist response www.iep.utm.edu/n-atheis/#H5

Re the Scottish RMS curriculum I think schools are allowed to choose which major religion they will study, certainly for the Scottish equivalent of O - levels. In practice this is usually Christianity. I live near Glasgow which is home to more than one mosque, a Sikh temple, three Buddhist centres, and an Episcopalian cathedral. I don't know of any other non-Christian centres of worship - but there probably are. My DC have never been on an educational visit to any place of worship. ( To be fair I don't know how practical it would be).
The Scottish curriculum in general is now obsessed with Scottish culture and heritage and has been greeted with mostly dismay by teachers. Study of Scottish texts is compulsory - DS has studied many Scottish texts but no Shakespeare sadly.

I didn't know about the Free Church wanting to create faith schools! I wouldn't send my DC to one but I'd be happy for anyone else who wanted to go. The argument that the state is providing a resource for only some children doesn't bother me - it doesn't cost any more to have a faith school presumably. All children are entitled to an education.

My very limited experience of faith schools (one was in England) is that they are more caring towards their pupils. The state schools I've experienced are much more likely to be all about 'achieving excellence'. Perhaps that's because the catchment area of DC's schools are fairly affluent.

Would Buddhism count as a religion - it has devotional practices but it isn't theistic? Some of the atheists in the article appear to be promoting broadly Buddhist practices.

a basis for morality without faith is much, much harder.

You might feel it would be harder, are you suggesting you believe it was from God because it makes it easier for you to understand? Personally having to work it out outside of a religion whose God has changed his own idea of what is and isn't moral is a lot less problematic. Can you think of an example of a moral decision you feel you would be unable to make without your faith?

I have always been confident that sex with children was immoral. God seems to have changed stance on this relatively recently - one wonders how human morals could have come to exceed those of God?