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Original poster

The mark of a true Christian?

147 replies

MrsGinnyPotter · 29/10/2015 11:22

The sermon was saying that as a Christian, there should be nothing on this earth that you would take now in exchange for an eternal life in heaven with God.
Now in theory this is fine but when you start putting it into real life situations - it's really hard to think 'I would choose God over this' e.g. If it was between something extreme like God or your child's life - how can you make that decision and live with it?

With smaller things it's fine -examples they gave in church were things like 'never chocolate again or winning a million pounds' which would all be easy to say no and choose God but something life altering it would be much harder.
Does it make you a bad person or not a true Christian for thinking like this?

OP posts:

Bolognese · 13/02/2016 18:48

I did look and didn't find. He never wrote, called or even popped round to see me. If god wants a relationship then he is playing very hard to get. I will add him to the list of 10,000 other gods that have stood me up without so much as an explanation.

Katisha · 13/02/2016 19:25

Don't much like the sound of the OP's sermon and for me the mark of a Christian is that person increasingly being able to exhibit the fruits of the Spirit, not them being able to make hypothetical decisions

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Galatians 5:22-23

springydaffs · 13/02/2016 21:34

I'm sorry to hear that bolognese. I'd be interested to know your route but realise it is impertinent to ask.

That's me out then Katisha. Oh dear.

Bolognese · 13/02/2016 21:56

Well, I was brought up in a christian family, 14 years religious school, 16 years Sunday school every week, several years bible class twice a week. Independently studied the bible. Most of my large family all believe but none of them can actually say what they believe in other than , " there must be something".

No one in my life has ever answered any basic sensible questions with any actual answers. I concluded long ago it was just like believing in Santa only someone forgot to tell the church it was all a fairy tale we told children. The truth and fiction are so far apart.

headinhands · 13/02/2016 23:07

Best moral choices? I just don't see this or even what you can mean - surely morality is all tied up with 'good'.

Most people who believe in a god see that God as the pinnacle of rightness. Am I right in assuming you don't feel this about your God and that your God is not concerned about rightness or goodness? And that he is not concerned with your moral conduct?

springydaffs · 13/02/2016 23:26

Aw I do feel sorry for you. At least I got a clear run-up. You've heard it all before, basically - and some. Inured to it probably.

I don't know how old you are but it is a usual rite of passage to reject our parents' values as part of a healthy process to individuation.

There's a lot of religion about, mind. A cultural Christianity, esp in the evangelical movement. CofE hopelessly middle class except in Africa . etc. Churches start off with what is in effect a passing flavour but it STICKS. Then gets set in concrete - for decades and decades! Stifling and dead dead dead.

But you may not want me to feel sorry for you - apologies if so. I don't know if you want to find God or not.

springydaffs · 13/02/2016 23:51

Erm. I'd say he'd be concerned about what i do on some levels bcs he loves me and, crucially, he loves the world. The collective. Having so much hate in me that I would kill someone is harmful to me - the hate - and obvs harmful to the murdered person. And their family. So yes he'd be concerned about the hate (or entitlement) in me bcs it's so bad for me. And others.

There was an article in the guardian today, the mother of one of the schoolboys who killed 12 at his school in Colombia back in the day (then killed himself. Poor poor woman, poor poor mothers). If she knew what was ahead I doubt she would have said to her son 'thou shalt not kill'; more 'How can I help; what can I do', hoping he would hear, that she could catch his attention before the awful thing unfolded. We all believe in the power of love to heal.

If that's what you mean by morality. Ime the morality didn't come first, the love came first. Still does.

springydaffs · 14/02/2016 00:03

Poor poor fathers too of course! Siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, friends, communities...

AlanPacino · 14/02/2016 07:13

We all believe in the power of love to heal.

Regardless of wether we get behind God. I still don't understand how getting behind God is any benefit. Many people have not felt loved by God. Many people are unable to even think a God who is interested in men exist.

You imagine that God weeps with those affected by murder. Would that include people affected by the slaughter of the Amalekites it the OT, or do you feel that God didn't order then to kill anyone and they got confused?

Your beliefs about a purely loving God are nice n'all but they run counter to the God of the bible. And I've seen from your previous posts that you revise the blood thirsty parts by asserting that the writers got it wrong. Wouldn't God be unhappy about that depiction?

springydaffs · 14/02/2016 17:49

I don't recognise that Alan but there we go. You've been busy.

headinhands · 14/02/2016 18:37

Apologies Springydaffs, I mistakenly attributed someone else's quote to you. They said: My interpretation is that he was testing himself when interpreting the passage about Abraham and Isaac. Do you believe the bible is the 'word of God'?

springydaffs · 14/02/2016 19:32

Oh I don't know! It's interesting, an extremely good read, if sometimes challenging. I really don't know if it is or isn't the word of God. Tbah it doesn't matter to me. And all the Christians wring their hands.

I will talk about the love of God bcs we've all heard incessantly about the capricious cruel spiteful power-crazed nutjob God and I'm sick of it. It's good to present the truth a balance. There's obviously more to God - Amalekites? I wasnt there - all pretty awesome tbf. But love is what he's about, all about, and it's good to talk about it.

You don't have to listen Alan. Unless you're seeking - are you?

Themodernuriahheep · 14/02/2016 20:36

I'm a latecomer to this thread and will doubtless get flamed by all sides, but shan't see it till next Sunday as I am giving up MN for Lent ( with one exception). Not sure if this helps, esp as IME no one is ever convinced by others' positions on religion if politics.

I try to be a Christian, more if I am honest because I think it makes me a slightly nicer person (and I love the music and the art), than if I don't. ( cf Evelyn Waugh on how even more horrid he would have been if he hadn't been a Catholic). Does this mean I am nicer or more moral than my agnostic, atheistic friends or those who support other religions? No, of course not. And I think I'd have felt the same as a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Jew.

Do I believe the bible literally, esp the OT? No, of course not. But there are useful truths in it, expressed historically, poetically, metaphorically, through camp fire type stories.

Do I believe in Jesus as my saviour? V hard, see above. It's a bit like an onion, layers of belief and disbelief alternating. Do I think it matters? Not terribly, if I make every effort to the sort of if person I could be best. Ie, I am never going to be an opera singer, but I can try darned hard to be always loving and sing a bit from time to time.

Do I think you will go to hell for not believing? No, of course not. If, if there is some sort of life after death and if, if, it is related to how one behaves here, then you - anyone- are quite likely to be on a higher grade than me as I fail constantly. But that's none of my business. My business is how I relate to the opportunities that are open to me.

What keeps me continuing to practice this rather bizarre and time consumming set of structures with a v mixed history? Two things, a belief in love. I put love in the place of the word God. Love is the Lord by whom we escape death. And by trying to keep the disciplines I am nicer than when I don't. I have to trust and not worry about the rest.

It seems to me that Jesus' messages are about love. Love of God, love of love if you prefer, love of your neighbour, love of yourself. And that's a pretty good guide to how we should behave.

None if this answers the issues around does God exist and if so how come massacres or the Haitian earthquake. It's far more a guide to daily life.

AlanPacino · 15/02/2016 09:12

we've all heard incessantly about the capricious cruel spiteful power-crazed nutjob God and I'm sick of it.

Every Christian has those accounts in all their own bible's. Are you sick of people talking about Jesus calling us to love one another? No, because it's nice. Not liking the parts where God orders the Israelites to kill everyone including babies and children doesn't make that part go away. You're sick of it because it is disgusting. You know that morally it's a dreadful way for God to behave and you can't justify it so you just want people not to mention it. That puts you in a very awkward position in terms of your inner mind, to acknowledge, in a round about way, that there are things God did, that make you feel sick.

AlanPacino · 15/02/2016 09:21

There's obviously more to God

But none of the fluffy bits make the vile bits go away. If you found out your neighbour killed babies you wouldn't ignore it because 'she volunteers in a charity shop now and again'

alltouchedout · 15/02/2016 09:28

I know a lot of Christians. They're all vert different people. The one who, to me, seems to truly embody the spirit of Christianity as it is so often presented to us is the one who probably questions the most. Admits to doubt. Is open about her non comprehension of God's allowing such appalling and widespread suffering. Her faith and love tends to win out over her doubt and fury but it's a close run thing at times. I love her a lot and despite my atheism genuinely respect her and her way of life. Those very loud "it's the will of God and I do not question it and sticking to rules is more important than living the messsge" Christians on the other hand... No, I don't have much respect for them. They're all about personal salvation and not at all about loving others who do not do exactly what they say is right.

AlanPacino · 15/02/2016 09:33

You don't have to listen Alan. Unless you're seeking - are you?

Why a question is asked isn't important, what matters is if you can answer. An to ask why it might be hard to answer.

springydaffs · 15/02/2016 16:06

It's not at all haRd to answer, I just don't want to. I didn't know I was before a jury. The thread asks what is the true mark of a Christian and you have so far not come up with an answer to that.

Love fluffy? Then you haven't loved if you think it's fluffy.

Bolognese · 15/02/2016 20:01

To get back to the OP. What does the question actually mean? What is a true christian? Well it seems the question is implying there are untrue or fake christians to be contrasted against the true christians. I guess fake christians are those who are pretending, like for example those going to church just to get a school place.

Now a lot of christians would say they dont know their is a supernatural christ but they believe their is one. Maybe they are hedging their bets, maybe they are still to be completely convinced, maybe it gives them comfort. Genuine people but not your 'true christian', because the true christian must be someone who knows there is an actual supernatural christ.

So how do you 'mark' those who know their is a supernatural christ, apart from everyone else. Well I wouldn't consider self declaration as useful as anyone could do that. So the only foolproof way to mark them out would be for them to share the proof of how they know there is a supernatural christ. Once that proof is out there everyone will only be able to say OMG they are right its true their is no way to refute it, they are a 'true christian'.

So the answer to the OP is the mark of a true christian is one who proves there is a supernatural christ.

Bolognese · 15/02/2016 20:14

Themodernuriahheep "Do I believe the bible literally, esp the OT? No, of course not. But there are useful truths in it"

In other words, if I dont like any of it say "I dont believe in that bit". If there is a nice bit, say "now that's what I am talking about, the words of god, live your life accordingly".

AlanPacino · 15/02/2016 21:00

Then you haven't loved if you think it's fluffy.

I know it doesn't involve stabbing babies.

springydaffs · 17/02/2016 14:09

Here is someone's opinion on it.

Lilyargin · 17/02/2016 14:14

The mark of a true Christian?
Gullible.

BigDorrit · 17/02/2016 14:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bolognese · 17/02/2016 15:59

Here we are in 2016 discussing morality, or as the op implies, true christianity. On the one hand we have rational ideas and on the other hand we have suggestions that a fight between tribes of two thousand year old barbarians on the other side of the world is how we determine what is good.

Whats even more ridiculous is that they still fight over it today. Do religious people not get how stupid that is. Its as if part of their brain is missing.

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