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Original poster

The mark of a true Christian?

147 replies

MrsGinnyPotter · 29/10/2015 11:22

The sermon was saying that as a Christian, there should be nothing on this earth that you would take now in exchange for an eternal life in heaven with God.
Now in theory this is fine but when you start putting it into real life situations - it's really hard to think 'I would choose God over this' e.g. If it was between something extreme like God or your child's life - how can you make that decision and live with it?

With smaller things it's fine -examples they gave in church were things like 'never chocolate again or winning a million pounds' which would all be easy to say no and choose God but something life altering it would be much harder.
Does it make you a bad person or not a true Christian for thinking like this?

OP posts:

FrancisdeSales · 03/01/2016 21:59

No the issue is you are telling us what we believe and now you are also interpreting the Holy Scriptures as you see fit as if no one has ever done it before. It has been done - at length. But rather than take the time to study what we believe you expect us to justify ourselves according to your interpretation. Do you go into synagogues and Jewish forums and explain how they have it all wrong too since their communities produced the OT?

AlanPacino · 03/01/2016 22:40

you are telling us

I'm aware that now, just as when I was a Christian, there is no consensus amongst believers.

Are you saying you don't believe there was a literal Abraham who was all set to sacrifice a literal Isaac? Or a literal slaughter of the Amelakites?

AlanPacino · 03/01/2016 22:44

Do you go into synagogues and Jewish forums and explain how they have it all wrong too since their communities produced the OT?

I'll engage with anyone who shows a willingness to engage on MN. I don't engage with people who show no such interest.

AlanPacino · 03/01/2016 22:48

But rather than take the time to study

Are you aware that there are many biblical scholars who view the scriptures differently to you? You shouldn't assume to know the level of study one has done. Such is the way of embarrassment.

FrancisdeSales · 03/01/2016 23:04

I think I clearly stated that the church has comprehensively thought about God (theology) and the world (philosophy) which naturally includes the study of the scriptures for 2,000 years. If you are a former Christian then I'm sure you are well aware of that.

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/01/2016 01:50

If your general line of enquirey stands outside of your, mine and anyone's life, what is it's purpose?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/01/2016 01:52

What does subjective reality mean to you Al?

AlanPacino · 04/01/2016 06:57

Sorry, meant 'objective'.

AlanPacino · 04/01/2016 07:01

study of the scriptures for 2000 years

And they still can't agree! God still can't effectively transmit a simple yes or no about certain issues.

AlanPacino · 04/01/2016 07:04

We don't need to have had a specific set of experiences. No one is anymore qualified.

springydaffs · 07/02/2016 23:38

Love and trust grow in a relationship. I don't honestly think it's possible to say you 'should' love or trust anybody, even God. Imo it's a good idea to love and trust God implicitly bcs it gives rise to immense enjoyment and peace in life - but the reality is I don't. If it came to God or my kids it would be my kids. As much as I would like it to be otherwise it just isn't. I don't even trust God with my kids - not quite anyway - but I'm getting there. This stuff takes time - it takes time to build a relationship.

That sermon sounds too much like 'should' to me. In theory it's probably accurate but reality is a bit different ime.

It says in the good book that Jesus learnt obedience through what he suffered and, in general, it's when life is down to the bare bones that we find out the most about God. Ie it's experience not theory. I guess theory is a benchmark - promises not commands - but I think we need to be aware when theory and reality are poles apart. No worries though, it's not as if God doesn't know exactly what we're about.

AlanPacino · 08/02/2016 06:39

it would be my kids. As much as I would like it to be otherwise it just isn't.

I wouldn't like it to be otherwise. Your kids are dependant on you. Surely God isn't and therefore your children should come first because of their vulnerability.

If you said any of this about your partner I would assume you were in an abusive relationship with a sociopath.

AlanPacino · 08/02/2016 06:42

I don't even trust God with my kids - not quite anyway - but I'm getting there.

Can you give examples that illustrate your growing trust? Is someone without this trust in God disadvantaged? If so, how? If not, why?

ThomasRichard · 08/02/2016 07:02

'By this shall men know that he are my disciples, that he have love one for another.'

'The first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord thy God and the second is like unto it, to love thy neighbour as thyself.'

I think that's pretty straightforward. A Christian accepts the divinity and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and shows it by trying to love God and his/her fellow man as Jesus did.

The examples in the OP don't prove anything except fanaticism. Every time we break the commandments - which is every day if you're me! - you're choosing a temporal reward over eternal life (living in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ with the opportunity of eternal progression). Taking it to extremes is not relevant to those everyday challenges.

headinhands · 08/02/2016 07:48

So there's no way to distinguish a true Christian from someone who's just being good to people? You might think that Jesus died for you but how is that actually going to make any outward discernible difference between you and a person who is just kind?

On the topic of having total trust in god where your kids are concerned, its not something the law looks favourably upon.

springydaffs · 08/02/2016 13:16

An example is I have an estranged child. Agony, frankly, and an example to trust God for the outcome. Either outcome. I can trust God (ish) for the outcome I'd want but not for the one I don't want.

Perhaps ' trust ' is trust for the outcome, whatever it is; that he'll hold and comfort us whatever it is. That doesn't mean one wouldn't eg use every available resource (I personally heavily believe God uses people to do what he wants to do eg doctors)

springydaffs · 08/02/2016 13:22

Someone once said to me when my child was abt to have cardiac surgery that 'God won't let him die '. That pissed me off and was not a drop of comfort. Why should, or would, he save my boy when others die regularly? Comfort for me is ' I am with you always, even to the end of the age' ; that I will be comforted and held regardless.

AlanPacino · 08/02/2016 13:44

God uses people to do what he wants to do eg doctors

If that was so then wouldn't the world be more of a level playing field? To have statistically best health outcomes depends on access to healthcare.

Why does God do less in very poor countries and do more in rich west countries. It seems deeply immoral to help those who already have access to non divine means.

springydaffs · 08/02/2016 18:47

God doesn't 'do less' in other countries, people do.

Imo God doesn't do divine intervention. We're here to do what we do. Some do more than others (for various reasons).

springydaffs · 08/02/2016 18:59

Yes, I didn't put that well. Imo God would like [understatement!] adequate healthcare for all. He doesn't step in and take over (imo) . in some sense we are his hands and feet. Some do things, some don't. I don't think God is selective about who steps up - just as I wouldn't be selective if my kid was in dire need: anyone would do. "If you do it for the least of these, you've done it for me". Because he loves us, just as I love my kids and if someone helped them when they were in need, in some sense they'd be doing it 'for me' ie in my place.

AlanPacino · 08/02/2016 20:30

He doesn't step in and take over (imo) . in some sense we are his hands and feet.

So you don't believe in the NT?

People in the third world are just bad which is why they're suffering so much more?

springydaffs · 08/02/2016 23:59

Eh??

AlanPacino · 09/02/2016 06:27

Some do things, some don't. I don't think God is selective about who steps up

So more people in the third world suffer because less people in the third world care enough to help? It sounds like victim blaming.

springydaffs · 09/02/2016 17:48

I should imagine it's less people in the first world step up for those in the third world. If we got on with it there would be enough for all.

AlanPacino · 11/02/2016 07:43

Do you think people in the west should look after people in the third world?

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