Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

But I would bow my head out of respect for those who do believe in it.

Why should you respect people who believe in stuff you think is nonsense. Tolerance yes, respect, no.

Just as I wouldn't have respect for someone who said they had fairies at the bottom of their garden. But I would be tolerant of their right to believe it.

I think lots of stuff is nonsense that people do but if it's not harming anyone I don't feel the need to make a deliberately rude public display of my opinion just to prove I think differently. Just basic manners really

But it is harming people.
I would have no issue with religion if they kept it to themselves, but they don't.

How is it harming anyone? If your child did 15 minutes maths a week you'd hardly think it had any kind of impact, or 15 mins of a sport or instrument you don't like. By all means people should withdraw if they really object but don't then moan it's not fair you have to.

Teaching kids that nonsense is the same as facts is damaging IMO

Yes - teaching kids "God does exist" and "God is all around us" is harmful. It is not evidence based fact, it is a person's own belief.

It would be like teaching a child that the moon was made of cheese during a science lesson.

We think differently then, I told mine all about father Xmas too, till much like god she realised it wasn't real.
Surely if you don't believe, you have the courage of your convictions to realise your child won't be indoctrinated because of a few minutes exposure?

Why in schools ?

No, I don't think my children will be indoctrinated, but I don't see why it should be something I have to counteract at all. I'm not expected to correct my kids that 2+2=4 if the teacher has been saying its 5. Schools are expected to teach facts, not to propogate nonsense that then has to be corrected at home.

Would you expect school not to mention father Xmas either? It's not necessary to counteract it religion. Same as I didn't counteract school promoting some sports that aren't our cup of tea. Perhaps I'm just secure enough in my own beliefs I can be accepting of dd learning about others without it being an affront.

Ah, the passive aggressive approach "perhaps I'm secure enough/a good enough parent/ rational/tolerant" etc

I am perfectly secure thanks, I just don't want my children being taught at school things which are manifestly incorrect. I don't think that's too high a bar.

We used to believe the earth was flat and the sun goes round the earth. Schools could continue to teach this and I could correct it, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect children to be taught facts while in school.

You don't really 'learn' in assembly. I think it's fine to learn about all religions. This is about collective worship. I think it's confusing for young children to be put in a situation where they have to worship a god, see everyone else do it, all their friends, all their teachers do it. Then they come home and get told that the God isn't real but they have to carry on doing it or stand in the corridor on their own for 15 minutes because it's the law.

I withdrew myself from compulsory worship when I was 14. Loads of people teased me about it and I was deliberately isolated during assembly. Once I was locked in the classroom and was about to jump out the window (ground floor!) as I was worried about being late for English. This was in 1998, I hope things have improved for those who choose to opt out.

I think the ideal would be no worship in schools and people attend their place of worship as needed.

They also learn achievement isn't valued as much as trying hard and other things that in the adult world aren't strictly true, all of which most parents endorse. When our kids do a painting age 5 we don't expect school to tell them truthfully it's shit you expect them to not be strictly truthful. We don't expect them to teach mum or dad leave your presents we expect them to lie.
Kids aren't stupid, unless you're indoctrinating them at home they don't need shielding from religion just cos it's not true. Fair enough if they start telling everyone they must believe in God but that's hardly the same as 15 minutes of dodgy bible acting and a nativity

I am delighted that my children have bee taught about Christianity and other religions. I just don't want them to be expected to practice religion. Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

Why is it so difficult to grasp that most people clearly don't see an issue? Because if all the athiests who really objected were the majority and withdrew their children from worship then there wouldn't be an issue with people saying their child will be isolated if they withdraw.

Interesting thread, if certainly not the first of its kind . I'm a staunch atheist and a teacher. My primary age dc go to a (wonderful ) C of E primary, which isour village school. I absolutely agree that religion should be removed from school life, except as an academic subject which covers all religions equally.

However... until non-secular schools exist, I don't really mind my dc being present for Christian assemblies because they have already decided (mostly through our influence ) that religion is utter make-believe. They are (at home) a bit that any of their classmates believe such nonsense. So I don't think they are in any immediate danger of brainwashing.

I can grasp that lots of people don't have an issue with it. For the most part, those people are probably christian or more comfortable with the cultural aspects of christianity. Atheists are in the minority in the UK according to the last census so children withdrawn from collective worship are still likely to be isolated. I think it would be better if the government provided secular schools with no worship.

Religion aside the King James bible is a bit like Shakespeare - its bound up in the heritage of Britain. So many phrases and idioms come from those two that you need some background in them to get British culture.

Phrases like "go the extra mile" or "wit's end" come from the Bible. Its okay to treat it as fantasy, but you shouldn't discard the text or you will diminish your education.

pretending to worship a God that you don't believe exists is not educational.

it is possible to learn about the Bible without praying

its not learning about Christianity that bothers me, it is the compulsory worship, they are different.

why in schools ?

you keep asking 'Why in schools?'
this is why:
"section 78 (1) of the 2002 Education Act states that all pupils should follow a balanced and broadly based curriculum which â??promotes the spiritual, moral, cultural, social, mental and physical development of pupils and of society, and prepares pupils for the opportunities, responsibilities and experiences of later
lifeâ??. "
From the National Curriculum, Non-Statutory Guidance on RE.

diddlediddledumpling- but that is not what we are objecting to.
This part of the Education Act you have quoted related to the delivery of RE.

*The most recent legal statement of the requirements for collective worship (as distinct from assembly) are contained in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998......... subject to the parental right of excusal or other special arrangements, “…each pupil in attendance at a community, foundation or voluntary school shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship.”

Schedule 20 to the 1998 Act gives more detailed information on the worship requirements. It notes the different practical arrangements that are allowed: “a single act of worship for all pupils or separate acts of worship for pupils in different age groups or in different school groups.” A “school group” is defined as “any group in which pupils are taught or take part in other school activities”.

In community schools the head teacher is responsible for collective worship provision, in consultation with the governors. The majority of acts of collective worship in any given school term should still be “wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character”. In other acts of worship, consideration should be given to “circumstances relating to the family backgrounds of the pupils which are relevant for determining the character of the collective worship which is appropriate in their case” and to the “ages and aptitudes” of the pupils.

A “broadly Christian” act of worship must contain some elements which relate to the traditions of Christian belief and which accord a special status to Jesus Christ. (Circular 1/94, paragraph 63). Only on special occasions can the act of worship take place somewhere other than on the school premises, subject to the agreement of the head.*

While we do have collective worship I would credit children with some intelligence and use it as interesting discussion. It is just as bad to dismiss it with your views, as if they are the only views. It should be prefaced with 'I think....' or 'some people think.....' The child will eventually come to what they think for themselves.
For example 10 commandments are not 'fantasy fiction' - they are an historical account. They were written over 3 thousand years ago - I find that incredible and can't think of anything else that I have read from so long ago. As the time, when people were worshipping all sorts of gods and had very dubious practices like sacrifices, they were pretty good. I think it very unfair to expect people living so long ago to have a mind with 21st century thinking- it is a sheer impossibility! I don't see why they need to be completely discounted as if all history is bunk.
People on here are so literal.
I am sure that collective worship will end in schools eventually, but if you want to speed it up you need to support organisations with campaigns like the secular society. It comes from Acts of Parliament and therefore it needs an Act of Parliament to change it.
I am not sure what happens in faith schools- a rather interesting one because rurally it is often the only choice and parents have not actively chosen a faith school.