Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

Christmas and Easter today are considered Christian celebrations in that they are part of the Christian calendar, and have connotations that to many have their origins in Christianity, due to the starring role of Jesus. Their actual origins I assumed everyone knew, so I didn't feel I needed to patronise people by including that fact. Nor did I feel it was necessary to point out the education system made allowances based on the Christian aspect, rather than the pagan, as I would have thought that was blindingly obvious. Perhaps I shouldn't have overestimated the logic of others.
Neither have I made unsupported assertations about how others should behave, when asked, again by yourself for examples of how minorities have stood up for their beliefs I provided them. Again nor did I feel I needed to provide proof to back up statements such as 'surely if you're the majority you won't be in the isolated minority group' as I felt it was self explanatory, but again I apologise if I should have explained more clearly how the basic logic of such a statement works.
Again, use of the words I chose to expose her to mainly Christianity and how that's natural, when to me it's logical that if someone shares different physical characteristics to the vast majority of the followers of religion, they are unlikely to be unquestionably accepted as either members of the congregation or recent converts. So the only choice or natural inclination was my decision to not needlesly offend people for my own convenience. You mistakenly came to the unmitigated conclusion it was due to my desire to promote christianity above other religions.
As for language, I use whichever word or phrase springs to mind as I'm writing. Unless it's something important (which mn isn't) I don't proof read or spend time in the first place checking grammar, sentence construction, predictive text or searching my vocabulary for replacement words. I can assure you though that they aren't words I personally find or use emotively, if I was being emotive the word 'fucking' would have peppered my posts.

You know we can read back over the thread, yes, to the bit where you stated Christmas and Easter were originally Christian? That's not 'assuming everyone knew' their actual origins, that was a statement that was flat out wrong, and it was pointed out.

Similarly, no one is disputing that Christmas and Easter are part of the Christian calendar - just that that isn't how they're primarily viewed, particularly through the lens of Christmas.

I maintain that you've made a choice to, say, take your daughter to a church and not alternatives. I can understand you avoiding the others (though I think your reasoning is a little insulting to the welcomingness of other faiths, as well as being quite odd in the context of Judaism), but it's still a choice to expose her to the formal worship of one religion when you feel unable to participate in others, and that is naturally going to have an impact on her later decision-making. I'm simply pointing out that in making up her own mind, she's been steered further down one path than others. I didn't say it was necessarily a conscious decision, or acting out a desire to promote Christianity, I don't think? Putting words in my mouth again?

It's curious that you seem so determined to ignore actual facts and evidence about what people think and their subsequent behaviour - you did make a number of unsupported assertions and logical fallacies (if they objected, they would remove their children, the fact that they haven't removed their children shows they are part of a majority who are in favour/don't mind). Those statements don't stack up as automatically - and numerous people have mentioned a variety of possible behavioural drivers - and are then undermined by evidence provided. That's what I mean by unsupported assertions. Without evidence - facts - to test one's assumptions, one can't be sure they're true.

I've no doubt you choose whatever words spring to mind when you're typing - I find the word choice quite interesting in terms of how you view and seek to portray other posters.

**as automatically logical, apologies.

have their origins in Christianity, due to the starring role of Jesus

Love that. I think you will find jesus is the understudy in most homes.

I find it difficult trying to impress on dd that the Christian Worship elements of her learning at school are simply what some people believe and not all people believe the same thing. While all the time trying to explain that, yes, Henry viii did have 6 wives, 2+2 does =4, you really do need to use captital letters and full stops....

'But the teacher said it' syndrome?

Yes, I can completely see the issue - the teacher knows, the teacher said x in or about collective worship, therefore x is true.

I'm not actually going to bother to answer all your different points individually, because when you take it upon yourself to repeatedly tell me I'm wrong, or mistaken or needed to be corrected, based purely on the fact we have differing opinions, rather than any actual proven facts or logical reasoning then there is no further point in debate. I'm not going to concede any point based on how you choose to interpret it, regardless of how many times you say it.
The interesting things we could have discussed, such as why ops school have reacted to her post so strongly, or why it's difficult to locate the guidelines/law, or whether culturally we have any right to expect our own non religious celebrations to be honoured above those of other cultures have been lost in your constant fault finding, regardless of what motivation you had.

"Again, use of the words I chose to expose her to mainly Christianity and how that's natural, when to me it's logical that if someone shares different physical characteristics to the vast majority of the followers of religion, they are unlikely to be unquestionably accepted as either members of the congregation or recent converts. So the only choice or natural inclination was my decision to not needlesly offend people for my own convenience."

I don't understand this at all. It sounds as if you are saying that different ethnicities follow different faiths- that all Christians are white, for example. And that members of other faiths would be offended by you trying to find out more about them. Presumably I've misunderstood you?

Lurked, the difference between the opinions I've posted and those you have is that I've tried to back mine with independent facts, be they opinion polls, studies, legislation or whatever else I can lay my hands on. Where that hasn't been available, I've made it clear that what I'm saying is speculation.

You haven't done that - you've said that things are 'obvious' when the available evidence suggests they're not, and you've assumed that your way of thinking is universal, and that people in a certain situation will behave in a way you think is logical, despite actual facts that suggest your assumption is incorrect.

I'm also still baffled by the idea that (a) religions are ethnically specific and seeking to learn about a religion would be seen as offensive and (b) that even were (a) true, Judaism would be closed to you.

Have you talked to members of these religions, or are you assuming they'd be offended?

On the other religions topic, we've been, and participated in, celebratory services at other places of worship. And as I said with friends in their homes, either celebratory or everyday, or normal interaction with friends.
I'm aware there isn't a rigidly fixed ethnicity for other religions. However my physical qualities do not blend into the background as being just another Muslim, another Sikh, Jew etc, and in my area the level of people converting is low enough that I wouldn't be likely to be assumed to be just another convert. Added to the fact the nearest mosques, synagogues etc aren't local, temples particularly cover a huge area. And all my nearest ones are in areas where there has been reasonably high racial tension for years, where an outsider would quite sensibly be viewed with suspicion. By comparison another Christian based place is a predominantly Afro Caribbean congregation, but being in an area with negligible racial tensions means others aren't likely to be viewed with suspicion, and that, rather than it being Christian made it possible to attend.

Well, you'll be glad to know thwt atheism is not restricted to one ethnic group, and doesn't ask for any celebrations or ceremonies or attendance anywhere. So I'm sure you've given your dd lots of opportunities to try it on for size.

Why is being (or appearing) to be 'just another' important to you? Why do you think religious communities would view you with suspicion - rather than welcoming? I get that you're worried about racial tensions - but isn't segregation likely to exacerbate that?

Which brings me back to one of my big problems with compulsory Christian worship in schools, and the opt-out.

Schools have to write a full risk assessment and can only take adults with DBS checks - how do you think they manage to organise trips to mosques and synagogues?

You need to move out of your comfort zone if you truly want to expose your DC to different religious views.

bertrand I am an athiest but thanks for sharing that.
jassy because in an area that's needed police presence just to stop people entering mosques being abused, or where someone shouting derogatory comments on the sabbath etc is not uncommon, it's wise, not paranoid to worry about the possible intentions of a non member turning up uninvited at a religious ceremony. It doesn't mean segregation, everyday interactions/ celebrations/ friendships locally prevent that. It's just avoiding disturbing peoples right to worship peacefully due to a logical fear of my possible intentions for attending.
surbarban no idea what point you're making if that's in reply to me?

Yes, lurking, it was in response to your post about how your fear of racial tension is holding you back and reminding you that groups of school-children manage to visit mosques and synagogues every year without incident and with far greater bureaucratic hurdles to overcome.

surbarban in brief jassy asked what I'd done to introduce my daughter to other religions, not what she'd experienced through school or any other experience through others groups or organisations. So again I fail to see the point you are trying to make.
bigdorrit I can't begin to follow what line of reasoning has led you to that conclusion, so I'm not going to attempt to respond until you see fit to clearly elucidate.

Ok, I'll try again, lurked.

You say your fears of racial tension and not being made to feel welcome are stopping you from taking your DD to places that would help her understanding of other religions.

I'm saying you have no proof you wouldn't be welcome, and if schools can do it with groups of 30 children and all the other hurdles they have to overcome, why can't you?

just one point that hasn't been expressed is that whereas those who DO want collective worship of a christian basis in schools are a collective with a shared interest those who DON'T are not a collective with unifying shared interests beyond this issue.

muslims, hindus, jehovah's witnesses, humanists, atheists, people who just don't think school is the place for indoctrination, multi-culturalists who don't believe we should promote supremacy of any kind etc etc etc aren't a collective nor do they share an institution (re: religion and the full apparatus of the christian lobbying powers).

this 'why don't they just withdraw then they'd be the majority' assumes a 'they' that doesn't exist and isn't represented in any way let alone privileged in the way that a 'they' that belongs to a priviliged (and extremely wealthy and powerful) institution is.

withdrawing is a hundred individual families deciding whether to ostracise their child, or make them stand out or create ripples with a school they need to maintain a working relationship with. it's families who already feel singled out and discriminated against in some cases, it's families who perhaps don't feel entitled or confident to question authority because of their own experiences as 'outsiders' 20 years ago in school themselves and it's people who just don't want their children to have to carry the burden of being 'different' or sitting in the library or getting an implied or explicit tut at the 'trouble' being caused.

it's also the masses of people who don't even realise their children are being exposed to christian worship.

even if they were technically a majority they're a majority made up of a ton of marginalised minorities ALL having the wishes of one privileged group forced upon them.

Again surburban I do not fear not being made welcome. I have extremely good reason to suspect my presence as an individual would spoil others enjoyment because they have very valid reasons to fear the motivation of an individual's attendance at normal worship. Yes, I could contact the religious leaders and explain myself, but again they'd still have reason to suspect my motives, or my affect on the congregation and yet would feel they couldn't say no for fear that I'd seize upon it as proof they don't wish to intergrate. Hardly a fair choice to give them. So considering all the other alternative ways open for her to experience other religions and join their worship, the possible small gain and pleasure she may gain from attending a run of the mill service with me does not balance in my mind against the risk of worrying others.
Attending with a group that most would assume were there for genuine reasons is entirely different. Same as being a guest at a celebration/ open event or in someone's home. Or when dd has learnt and joined in with her friends. Nobody is going to fear I am there prior to entering to make racist remarks at those going in, or to twist what I've seen into fuel for racial tension like they would have very good reason to suspect if I just turn up at regular worship. Who knows, maybe if that had been the only way to experience it, because we didn't have friends to get it from, and she wasn't already a member of community groups doing that type of thing and therefore could only get it through school, maybe I'd be tagging on to more groups. As it is I don't believe my wish to attend as an individual should trump the rights of many others to worship without worry.

Not directed only at you but I'm confused as to why my daughters exposure to other religions is such a fascinating topic of conversation people feel a need to both quiz the details and the motivation.

it was 'fascinating' because of the irony that you were able to recognise issues with being an 'other' in a worship group at a place of worship but unable to empathise with what it is like to be othered at school by forcing it to be a place of worship.

No dorrit incorrect, that doesn't concern me at all. Neither does it concern me that I'd stand out. What concerns me is the fact others would have very valid reasons to suspect someone who stands out as not a follower as attending for negative reasons rather than positive. Hence why 'standing out' in an Afro Caribbean group didn't even factor in my considerations, because as a group they didn't have the same grounds to assume I was attending for negative purposes.

well maybe non christians feel like an object of suspicion when forced to attend christian worship. and they can't just avoid it like you can because it's in school!