Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

I don't have access to any data on why the people who think collective worship should be abolished in schools don't withdraw their children from it. Do you?

I have my own speculations but they're not evidence, any more than I have hard evidence on why there's such a gap between those who identify as Christian in the Census versus the BPAS, or the gap between those who identify as Christian and those who are theist, or the gap between those who identify as Christian and those who attend worship.

I suspect there are a wide range of behavioural, psychological and social factors among both parents and kids. Plus those who don't know it even happens. I don't have data on that group, but there are quite a number on MN who are surprised when they hear collective Christian worship happens in non-faith schools.

Again dorrit if the majority felt that strongly there's be a majority group withdrawn which there isn't.

This is an awfully big assumption, that ignores all sorts of reasons for people's behaviour when they are part of a group. Do you have evidence to back up the assertion? Examples where similar behaviour has been demonstrated in an analogous situation?

I've already answered for myself, but because I like dd to have the opportunity to experience things herself so she can make up her own mind.

Then why aren't you agitating for collective worship from a variety of faiths, rather than being limited to Christianity? Aren't you concerned she's not making a true choice, but rather one strongly affected by cultural bias?

If you want her to make a choice on religion, and experience different religions for herself, how are you facilitating that outside of school?

I missed this bit:

I'd also argue the food issue does draw attention, having to discuss why you eat chicken at home but not school, or why you have ham sandwiches from home but won't touch schools

Do they take her into a separate room because she won't eat the chicken? Do they present the chicken as the only choice in the school dinners? (if they are, they're not following guidelines...)

Interesting. That ComRes poll from 2011 also found that 2/3 of parents say their children don't have collective worship at school, with another 8% being unsure.

Which means that either the schools educating 2/3 of children are breaking the law, or a significant proportion of parents don't think their children are participating in collective worship, when in fact they are.

Either is interesting, don't you think?

Actually surbarban I was answering jassys question on why I wanted my dd to experience collective worship, so don't tell me my analogy is wrong. It might not match the level of importance you or anyone else attaches to their atheism but I wasn't aware I was obliged to get equally annoyed by exposure to Christian worship as some others.
jassy I stand by my statement if you feel that strongly about something you stand up for what you believe in. And if that happens to be the same belief as many others then it's much easier to get your view heard. There's absolutely loads of evidence throughout history of people objecting to what is traditionally the norm and gathering numbers and momentum. Surely you don't need me to list things like the suffragette movement, the ira, the anti's movement decades before it was harnessed to political agenda, racism, etc etc.
Neither am I making out the food issue was a huge hardship, but it's exactly the same principle, if you feel that strongly people can withdraw.
I have no idea why you feel dds exposure to other religions is vaguely relevant. As it happens as I'd chosen a church school from none denominational ones, I expected them to discuss other religions but only a knob would demand group worship dedicated other than to Christianity in a school you've had the option of not applying for. Outside of that we've only attended services intended for worship at different types of Christian churches, purely because if we turned up at a mosque, temple, synagogue etc it would be obvious we can't actually be followers and could therefore be offensive to the actual members. However both at celebrations and everyday occurences she's had not only the exposure to learning but the chance to join in with worshipping alongside. We don't know any Hindus or Buddhists well enough to be in a situation to join in with home life/ worship. And paganism isn't covered in school nor do we know any so we've settled for just research.
I'm also unsure why you believe I should be campaigning for any form of change in religious teaching in schools when I'm not bothered by the current system.

I said I was off, but I've work to do do inevitably I'm being sucked in again.

Jessy I gave some benefits of collective worship when I posted this morning about 8.40.

I think the most helpful post I've read on this thread was by Boffinmum at about 9.15, when she gave the historical context. she also discussed that many schools ignore it, they're breaking the law, but nobody enforces it.

BigDorrit while Jessy's quoting of evidence from surveys is very useful, I think it's less useful to speculate that it's going on in most schools but the parents don't know. That's just your suspicion and you're forming conclusions based on what you 'suspect'. is it not possible that it's not actually going on in many schools?

Apologies, Jassy my autocorrect objects to your name.

dorrit I never said it was a majority, I simply asked why if it was a majority they don't all withdraw and stand to be counted as it were.

I gave the benefits of collective worship at 7.15 am and so have been a little surprised to have them continually asked for. I also think that BoffinMum had an excellent post.

With apologies - the wording of my question was clumsy and obviously confusing.

I'll refine.

What is the benefit to children of the Christian and worship elements of the legal requirement, that could not otherwise be achieved through a non-religious assembly (which covers most of the suggested benegits)? Agreed, diddle, it wouldn't cover the bible stories but could include stories with a moral or ethical message as you've set out, and ditto quiet time for thought and contemplation - all the better, I'd say, for it not being directed towards a particular deity of affording a special status to Jesus. In fact, the stories and moral/ethical messages absent religion would be better as they'd also reach the 1% of kids whose parents opt them out.

Mehitabel, I love a good (old) hymn as much as anyone and more than most. However I'd rather see them taught as part of a music or RE curriculum that looks at religious music from different traditions, rather than as part of an act designed to afford a special status to Christianity in schools. What is the benefit of the latter over the former?

"They are of value because it gives a time of quiet and a time to think. I suspect that a lot of children use it is a quiet time for private thought in a very busy day because I could bet money on the fact that if you get back to the classroom and ask them what assembly was about a good many couldn't answer. The majority couldn't answer if they are 4 yrs old. Therefore OP must have a child with a good memory if they retain enough to 'unteach'. This doesn't mean that it was a waste of time- maybe they were a child like me who loved time to daydream. If they are listening they are generally some interesting thing to think about. They are not all Christian - they use other religions too.
The hymns are of value- there are some lovely ones. The old ones don't feature anymore, which is a bit of a shame, but there are some lovely modern ones.
They are of value because it is our culture. It shows what a service is about, useful to know if you never get taken to church because they will feature on the news every time there is a memorial service or similar.
The prayer is if value because it makes a summary. They are not asked to pray along. When I was at school we said the Lord's Prayer but this is not done. It is very short- a contemplation and often ( not always) it is made clear that it is not a prayer unless they wish it and say 'Amen'."

This is mehitabel's explanation of the benefits of collective worship. She has not explained, even though she has been asked, why the "quiet time" can't be non religious and inclusive, rather than exclusive. The "showing what a service is about" is bonkers- you don't have to take part in something to know what it looks like. And in any case, collective worship in a school is nothing like a church service. And there is absolutely no reason why the "summary" should be a prayer. I hear the sound of the bottom of the barrel being scraped, and, as usual, Christians clinging on to their postition of privilege.

Your analogy doesn't work, lurking.

It doesn't matter whether it's me or another poster who tells you.

I came across an interesting study from Queen Mary's in Belfast earlier that looked at reasons pupils of other faiths did not wish to be opted out of collective school worship. Only looked at secondary pupils but still worth a look- I'll try to remember to link later, but easily searchable if people are interested.

Of course, it only looked at children who practised an alternative religion, not children of no faith. Sigh.

I've been shown fuck all, although I've heard the reasons other people suspect it's not happened. Because I've been shown someones opinion it doesn't mean I have to agree it's correct.
And as I said earlier i have taken her to church, I picked a church school for the same reason parents choose one non-denominational over another, and I'm not fussed about worship one way or the other.
Neither is it 'I'm alright jack'. If others wish to think religion in schools that's up to them, but I'm not going to start frothing over something that I believe is a non issue. 'I'm alright jack' would be applicable if we were discussing something like senco provision and I said 'fuck it my childs nt so who cares'. Holding a different opinion to yours or anyone else's on whether religion in school is an issue does not make me either wrong or selfish or you correct.

No surbaban it's irrelevant whether you personally agree, or anyone else with my beliefs, it doesn't mean I am wrong to have them.

I didn't say anything all it your beliefs, lurker.

I said your attempt to draw an analogy between belief and food preference doesn't work.

As Boffinmum explained, there's a historical reason why collective worship in theory incorporates Christianity.
I know most or all of the benefits I described could be achieved without any reference to religion, and maybe that's what happens in a lot of schools. The reason I don't object to the religious input is that it's such a minor thing. also my experience (from the school I work in) is that very often there is no reference to God or Jesus, there may or may not be a prayer, it may have input from other religions and atheism, and very often it's really quite interesting.

I'm interested to look up that study, Jassy, although I think if I asked the question in my school I'd be told they don't want to miss the craic

I've been shown fuck all, although I've heard the reasons other people suspect it's not happened. Because I've been shown someones opinion it doesn't mean I have to agree it's correct.

Ok, but a collection of the opinions of around 1500 people (from memory) have been shared on this thread, in response to assertions about what 'the majority' think based on their behaviour - demonstrating that the majority are actually against this, based on the evidence available. What's your issue with that?

And as I said earlier i have taken her to church, I picked a church school for the same reason parents choose one non-denominational over another, and I'm not fussed about worship one way or the other.

Good for you? Why does it bother you so that it does worry other people?

Interesting to see that you're steering your daughter towards a choice between Christianity and atheism, though. Unless you've also taken her to mosques, synagogues, golden temples? Interested in why you see it as a binary.

I think you'll find it is, it was in response to someone (maybe jassy) saying that parents who object shouldn't have to emphasise a difference, and I used it to illustrate the point that in many areas of school, let alone life, the minority has to either emphasise their difference by standing by their belief, or comply. What they can't do is demand everyone conforms to what they want. Don't confuse failure to understand ( whether through intelligence or deliberate attempts to object to my opinion ) with whether something is correct.

Diddle, my worry is when that history is at odds with the makeup of modern society and can cause people to feel that certain parts of school are not 'for them' because they adhere to that historical, Chtistian worldview. In a time when we are worried about lack of integration, about radicalisation and about communities that aren't cohesive, isn't it worth examining all the things that exclude, explicitly or implicitly, those who aren't of the historically dominant religion?

I'm all for sharing stories from various religions. In RE, where they are presented as equal and opinion, and without a legal requirement for a deity to be worshipped and Jesus afforded a special status (acknowledging that schools carry out their statutory duties differently, if at all).