Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

I doubt anyone in authority is doing it solely for the purpose of indoctrination, it's habit same as summer holidays to help with the harvest, or xmas holidays.
Again though if it's so many that are opposed then not hard to find several other parents in your childs class and band together so the withdrawn child is not alone?

dorrit perhaps religious education isn't a bad thing, that doesn't really feature much in the c of e bible.

Again though if it's so many that are opposed then not hard to find several other parents in your childs class and band together so the withdrawn child is not alone?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I object to a state system that sets a single faith as the 'default' and expects those who are not of that faith to opt out and emphasise their difference from the norm, rather than worship being an opt-in. My objection is systemic more than individual, because I think it probably damages other children more than mine, and society as a whole.

If it's not about indoctrination, or evangelism, or proselytising, what is it for? What is the purpose of broadly Christian worship being compulsory in schools? Why in a packed school day, when teachers often say they don't have enough time to fit things in, are we wasting time on something that is apparently so pointless?

Has anyone complained about religious education?

I certainly haven't. I outlined my view that the place to learn about Christianity was the same place as children learn about other faiths - through religious education lessons that are structured and explain the various religions in context, rather than setting one particular faith as 'first among equals'.

No bigdorrit I thought I'd just be equally facetious. I notice nobody has answered why the supposedly many people who object to mild worship don't just band together to withdraw so their child isn't the only one.

Has anyone complained about religious education?

RE is fine. Learning about religion.

"There are 2 billion Christians in the world and they believe Jesus rose from the dead"-- absolutely fine, that's religious education

"Jesus rose from the dead"---definitely not fine, that's bullshit.

I notice nobody has answered why the supposedly many people who object to mild worship don't just band together to withdraw so their child isn't the only one.

Me! Me! I answered why it isn't that simple for some of us!

And OP. OP answered that one in her OP.

In exchange, can I get an an answer to the apparent benefit of collective Christian worship in non-faith schools? I've asked quite often.

X-post jassy however others are objecting to their child being singled out.
The fact is though if you're in a minority then until you can prove you're the majority then unfortunately you do need to put up with that difference being emphasised if it conflicts with your beliefs.
I've got strong beliefs on animal welfare, but unfortunately my belief isn't the majority one, so it means at school it's been the choice of emphasising dds difference by her avoiding some foods there, or sacrificing our beliefs. But until mine is the majority view I unfortunately have to suck up the fact schools aren't going to swop to only foods that fit my belief. And if someones athiest belief means they feel that strongly then until they are more numerous then I view it the same.

Why 'supposedly many', by the way? What evidence are you taking issue with?

And is it difficult to believe that parents, particularly if they are new to a school, don't want to be seen as 'that parent' or the one rocking the boat? They don't want their kid to be seen as an 'opt out' kid, no matter how many kids are opting out from what is presented as the mainstream?

Or that their views may be nuanced - they don't want collective worship but are more comfortable with some of the more culturally Christian, but not actually Christian worship, aspects that the school may run around Christmas and Easter - those bits that cater to the half of all those who identified as Christian in the Census who in fact don't believe in any gods, let alone the Christian one?

^X-post jassy however others are objecting to their child being singled out.
The fact is though if you're in a minority then until you can prove you're the majority then unfortunately you do need to put up with that difference being emphasised if it conflicts with your beliefs.^

I posted some pretty strong evidence above that I'm not in a minority. There is no evidence I've found that the majority want collective worship in schools - have you seen any?

However, I'm in a minority about lots of things, as is my child. In others, I'm firmly in the majority. Why is Christianity treated as special within the school day, and those other things are not? What is the benefit to children? Why are we spending school time on this?

Your animal welfare beliefs do not involve your child being removed from a group activity - it simply involves her being fed different foods, in an environment where children will be eating a variety of foods anyway, making her 'difference' much less visible. However, I disagree anyway that there is equivalence - children need to eat during the school day, so meals are not in any way equivalent to worship.

And if someones athiest belief means they feel that strongly then until they are more numerous then I view it the same.

Why are you focusing on only atheists? Why is it a Christian/atheist dichotomy? Can you see that this view is actually part - or perhaps a symptom - of the problem?

Why is the education system even setting up such a divisive practice? Is there a benefit to children?

This is bit like the "Christian prayers before council meetings" debacle.

Those practising Christians who want the prayers as part of the meeting say people who don't can wait outside until the prayers are over. People who say Christian prayers have no place in the business of public service want to know why they, elected councillors, should be made to wait outside while a practice that is not necessary is carried out by a minority.

Public worship is not necessary where there is a mix of faiths and none. I seem to remember that even the bible says big group worship is not necessary to show faith.

It's not about atheism. It's about not praying in non faith state schools. Many Christians are also secularists the non I'm all right Jack ones and there are, you may be surprised to know, many people of faith who are not Christians in this country.

Tbh I haven't got a clue whether it's a handful in the UK who object, or if 90% of non Christians do.
Op doesn't want to withdraw her child because she's the only one, others on the thread have implied compulsory worship is something that many in real life feel strongly about. So I'm genuinely confused as to what the issue is. If you're the rarity who wants to withdraw, then like many situations the majority rules. If a sizeable group objects then you aren't isolated.
I'm not sure the fear of being in the 'opt out' group is valid, firstly because if you have strong beliefs you shouldn't mind standing up for them because of peer pressure ( God knows we all tell our kids that). And secondly I've found if it's a genuine view put in a non preachy way other parents/ the school tend to be more open minded even if they don't agree.
Forgetting my food beliefs I was the instigation behind kicking off about a teacher/ ta issue in y1 that was benefitting all but 2 but still found enough support because of the morals of the situation, and no social comebacks even from those who preferred what was happening

The majority rules

Christians who practise regular worship are not in the majority in the UK.

I helpfully posted the results of a 2011 ComRes poll upthread that dealt with that very question.

I haven't checked all of OP's posts, but her OP did not talk about her child being 'the only one'. She talked about segregation due to religion in school, and her concern that it is dividing the community unnecessarily. I agree with her.

I wonder if you're actually reading my posts? I'm not speaking of a position of 'fear' (odd choice of words) of my child being in the opt out. I am speaking of my concern of the potential damage of this practice to the community in which my child and I exist, when no one has been able to articulate any benefit to the practice.

I'll ask again. I'll ask until my fingers get tired. What is the benefit to children of collective worship in schools? Why are people so eager to defend it and see it continued?

I don't have beliefs, by the way, when it comes to gods. I don't believe in any gods. That's sort of the point. Atheism is an absence of belief, not a particular belief system.

Again then, if the majority don't want it then surely even before anyone needs to campaign for the law and guidelines to change, then the majority being withdrawn in September would send out a pretty clear message.

And anyway - the 'withdraw your kids' thing is a bit of a red herring. Even if the majority of parents in school withdrew their kids from collective worship, the school would still be required by law to provide it. There are a series of hoops they can jump through to provide collective worship of a different religious character, but no provision in law to provide an equivalent community experience not affiliated to religion.

So campaigning to change the law makes sense. Withdrawing one's child from the collective worship, or organising a group do to likewise, does not.

OP you have the opportunity to remove your child from these "compulsory" worship sessions, but you choose not to do so. To my mind if something is really an issue to someone they will go out of their way to avoid it. You do have a choice.

I attended a non faith (albeit private boarding) school & was obliged to attend a chapel service (chapel part of school complex) 4 times weekly & 2 chapel services on a Sunday. I had to learn the Creed, Confession & Responses - these days I am fairly ambivalent about religion, would count myself as a Christian but do not regularly attend church. Trust your children to make up their own minds & simply give them the alternative view on any Bible stories, professions about a omnipotent God that you don't agree with.

I've already answered for myself, but because I like dd to have the opportunity to experience things herself so she can make up her own mind. So the worship for me was exactly the same as music, gymnastics, cauliflower etc. something to try before forming an opinion.
I'd also argue the food issue does draw attention, having to discuss why you eat chicken at home but not school, or why you have ham sandwiches from home but won't touch schools, why you eat anything at x's house but only veggie at mine etc emphasises a difference just as much as avoiding compulsory worship in a none denominational school.

Lurked, if that was to me, I didn't say the majority don't want it - I don't think anyone could know that. And there are probably all manner of reasons why a parent wouldn't express their views about this, mostly covered by PP up thread.

What I'm saying is that collective Christian worship is not practised by the majority of people in the UK, therefore it's unclear (at best) as to why this practise should be carried out in schools and what it is supposed to achieve.

Christians who practise regular worship are not in the majority in the UK.

They aren't even the majority in church, most of whom are just trying to get their kid into a particular school or sucking up to the vicar to get married in church.

Most "Christians" are in church for births, marriages and funerals.... hatches, matches and dispatches.

Again dorrit if the majority felt that strongly there's be a majority group withdrawn which there isn't.

Honestly, lurked, your analogies don't work.

Liking cauliflower (or not) has nothing to do with belief.

TTWK