Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

And my last argument wasn't about harm it was 'why does it matter if your children think differently to you'? People seem so scared of not having control- silly when you can't control what others think.

Actually bigdorrit I said I would have preferred a none church school, because a church school does significantly more than 15 mins mild worship. Not that I would have preferred one that didn't do the 15 minutes, and that my experience has changed my mind about church schools, and that I see the extra religious education a bonus. As is the fact we both now have the opportunity to get involved with the parts of the religious community we believe in, like helping others ( xmas toy collections, practically helping the vulnerable etc) than we otherwise would have.
As to my involvement on the thread, same as any other people comment with opposing opinions to the op. And especially when the objection is that atheists are being unfairly treated by mild worship, as an atheist I have every right to pose my opinion that it's not worth being bothered by.

PunkrockerGirl - if a post contains bad grammar or spelling mistakes, it Iessens it's impact imo.

True dat.

It's not atheists who are being unfairly treated. It's anyone, of any faith or none, who does not believe that worship has a place in a state funded non faith school.

There are Christian secularists, you know!

"And my last argument wasn't about harm it was 'why does it matter if your children think differently to you'? People seem so scared of not having control- silly when you can't control what others think."

Oh, FFS! Have you actually read what anyone has said? It's nothing to do with not wanting them to think differently. It's about not wanting them to pray to a Christian-or any other-God in school

Where did I say I assume only churches do good work? Or that it's the only way to help people?
The fact is for us as I said, the church plays a big part in local community good deeds. It's been an organised base for all the stuff like giving to the poor since before any others existed, it's a predominantly Christian area in terms of those who are religious, and has a much bigger audience than any other local organisation doing good stuff. Yeah sure I could track down smaller organisations locally ( who mostly still work with the church) or volunteer for a bigger one meaning travel times and cost and advance planning. And if the local church focused its attention on only Christians who need help then I would. But as it happens my local church seem to do quite a good job, if I lived near a temple/ mosque/ synagogue/ community centre doing the same then I'd credit it to them.

bertrand your post of 1416 I can see your reasoning, but I just think that as long as it's a minority group, their wants will be trumped by the opposing wants of the majority group, which as long as there is a choice to opt out seems fairest. Much like a lot of other things done in schools.
Although if it could be proven the majority didn't want it, I'd agree it should be discarded

You were the one that questioned it bigdorrit

I didn't say it was. I used it to demonstrate the point that being exposed to worship doesn't mean you are more likely to take it up. And that it's possible to pick out the bits you feel are in line with your own beliefs, same as we all follow certain commandments whether for moral or religious reasons or both.
I haven't got any justification to offer for compulsory worship, if however you mean justification for worship as standard but the right to withdraw, then like many things in school and indeed life, the majoritys views will trump the minority one.

I don't believe in collective worship in schools either - but not enough to do anything about it. If it does bother you then you ought to be doing something and able to say to OP - I do x,y and z ( or even just x ) and give the links.
I think it helps to make up their mind if they are exposed to other's faiths- not just as RE but actually seeing people practice a faith. I don't think it is justification for collective worship in schools,but if you have never taken them into a place of worship, never explained why shepherds etc appear on Christmas cards, never had any Bible stories, never seen people praying etc etc then of course it is all going to be very interesting to a 5 yr old- even more so if it gets their mother uptight.

It is hard on the parent - they get the first 5 yrs with 'my mummy says' and they hit school and you get the world according to Miss X which is highly irritating if it doesn't match your world. If you are laid back they work through all that - the God concept doesn't seem so exciting- and they get to 'I think' , especially if you discuss it rather than dismiss it.

This is out of sync now cos I've been at work, but earlier in the thread I quoted from the National Curriculum.
my point wasn't that 'it's the law, so it has to be done', my point was the idea that education should develop the individual in spiritual and moral ways, which I completely agree with. Several posters have claimed that schools should deal with facts, which to me is at most only half of what kids should learn there. They should also learn to think critically, to be aware of other people's ideas, to cone up with their own ideas, and myriad other things. I do think schools have an important role in developing this aspect of character. as should their parents, obviously.

For the record, I'm a secondary teacher, atheist, with kids at a primary school where collective worship is taken quite seriously. ds1 used to declare he didn't believe in God, now he says he does. Whatever, he's plenty of time and thinking to do before he comes to a conclusion. I've offered to take him to church, but he's not interested.

In my own school, I've developed whole school assemblies around science and nature topics, as well as thankfulness.

also, this is an open forum with healthy discussion. I don't think it's necessary to repeatedly question why a poster keeps taking part in a discussion. The answer is because he/she has something to say.

Lurkedforever it is NOT possible for my four year old to "pick out the bits that they feel are not in line with your own belief"
I have to undo the damage caused in assembley - where her head is being forced full of other adult's personal beleifs that are not factual.

How do you know her head is being 'forced full' of those personal beliefs? (And by the way, nobody's personal beliefs can be proven factual, including your own. They're just beliefs.) I do think it's important that the governor you talked about was happy with the Open Book people.
You asked for advice on how to deal with this. Several people, with similar personal beliefs to your own, have said not to get worked up about it, she'll make up her own mind. I really believe that, but you seem to be determined that she will believe what you believe.

If the same person tells a child "2+2=4" "Paris is the capital of France" and "God is all around us" how does that child know which is fqct and which isn't?

Well I don't know, but most people on this thread seem to have managed to work it out

Sorry recall I hadn't realised your standard worship was so different to the norm, perhaps complain to the governors that it's clearly deviated so much from what's done in all the other schools with it having such strong far reaching consequences. Christ, at 4 dd came home from her church school (prayers morning and grace lunch, special assemblies, religious lesson once a week, church at least 6x a term) sharing pearls of wisdom like Jesus died at Easter so we can have eggs, and asking questions about whether Jesus magicked the last supper like the fishes, and that you shouldn't eat the sweeties from the christingle in church because the vicar gave you a chocolate too if you didn't. So it's clearly got serious overtones if your dd is getting that message from a few mins once a week.

Thank you, diddlediddkedumpling - I always find it strange when people question why you want to post, only ever when they don't like what you are saying!
I think that children should be taught to think critically and they can - they always have opinions if you ask them. They are often quite surprising deep. Children can work out fact and opinion but you have to work at it. It does help if you don't put your own opinions as facts.

I don't see a fundamental difference between mandating that schools must nurture children's spiritual development and stating that schools must develop children's auras Spirits are unlike emotions or morals in that they're not a description of inner processes or beliefs, but separate things which are hypothesised to really exist independent of our own minds, and for which there's no evidence. Saying schools are responsible for children's spiritual development seems utterly bizarre to me.

That's the wording of the national curriculum document, and most people, even those like myself who don't believe in the existence of a spirit as a separate thing, understand what is meant by spiritual development. To me, it encompasses thankfulness, wonder at the living world, and a dimension of human experience that doesn't fall under the heading of emotion or morality.

Mmm, secular "spirituality". I don't see what is gained by using religious language to describe a random subset of aspects of humanity as disparate as thankfulness (thanking who?) and wonder at the living world.

" Children can work out fact and opinion but you have to work at it. It does help if you don't put your own opinions as facts."

But it's OK if schools do?