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Original poster

Religion is good because it gives the believer an objective and absolute standard of morality

638 replies

Vivacia · 25/03/2015 18:33

(This idea was introduced in another thread, but it felt like an unfair tangent for that thread to be taking in my humble opinion, but one I'd be interested in discussing).

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the statement.

Secondly, I feel as an atheist I have an objective morality, if not an absolute one.

OP posts:
capsium · 04/04/2015 18:43

'They' referring to animals not ants in the third sentence. Sorry for the typos, tinteresting indeed! Grin

vdbfamily · 04/04/2015 22:32

How anyone could genuinely read the New Testament and try and attempt to claim that Jesus was racist just makes me laugh. There are sooooooooo many examples of him being just the opposite. He was continually annoying people by chatting to all the people that Jews should not associate with. The story of the good samaritan showed how silly Jesus thought all the racial divisions were. I would love to get the mother of that girl onto Mumsnet and get her to tell all the atheists what she thought of Jesus that day. I bet she did not go away from that event telling everyone what a dreadful racist Jesus was!!

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:00

many examples of him being just the opposite

Which i know of but doesn't detract from this incident. You don't get to be racist once for every ten times you're aren't. It seem ridiculous to believe that a force that can create universes and black holes gets itself tangled up in racially fuelled affairs. It makes him look like the people around him, the fact that it was even an issue.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:07

what she thought of Jesus that day

Setting aside the fact that I don't think she ever existed, I can only interpret it for myself using my logic and reasoning. What about the miracles spoken of in other religious texts? Would you believe the testament of those of other people?

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:12

the lowest of the low

Which may be what the Jews thought of her, but Jesus, if he embodies what you say God is, should be way way above anything to do with race.

vdbfamily · 04/04/2015 23:12

someone is either racist or not.They either believe that everyone is equal and valued or they don't. The evidence in the New Testament strongly indicates that Jesus treated people compassionately and equally. Therefore I would suggest in the light of the evidence that it is likely as has previously been noted that there was a bit of banter going on, maybe more 'puppy' than 'dog' and that there is also some validity to the argument that Jesus wanted to hear from the mother what she believed. As I said previously, I doubt she was upset by the outcome whereas most people dealing with racist abuse would be left a bit shaken and disturbed

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:18

head

Jesus healed the Canaanite woman. He questioned her, I believe in order to establish her faith (see my earlier posts today).

He was not being racist, by which I mean he was not acting according to a derogatory racial prejudice.

Why do you think this is implausible? You admit Jesus challenged racial prejudices, which existed at the time, generally? Why the change of character? The Bible states Jesus remains the same.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:19

if it is a demon possession?

You believe such a thing is real?Blush

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:19

woman's daughter. Typo.

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:22

Why the blushes head? I explained my Christian beliefs earlier. They include belief in spirits.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:25

why the change of character?

I don't know, probably because it's not factual and Jesus was nothing to do with God but however you look at it he talks to someone who wants his help as lesser than the Jews. Why does he need to establish something he would already know? Couldn't he just help her because he had the ability and was loving? You said Jews could reject him, so he would need to establish everyone's opinion of him first?

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:26

It just seems so, harmful to believe in that sort of thing. Do you believe mental health issues are to do with demons?

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:29

head how can you give someone something they will not acknowledge and will not accept and refuse to receive? The woman had to accept Jesus had the power to bless her, by healing her daughter, in order to heal. She had to acknowledge her own beliefs and acceptance. She could have been desperate, just clutching at straws, until the questioning clarified her belief.

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:31

head please read my previous posts regarding the way the words spirit, Angels are demons were used in the Bible.

This informs my own definition of these words over modern gothic.

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:32

^ and not are. Typo.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:32

That makes no logical sense. My 8 week old doesn't need to believe in her vaccinations for them to protect her.

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:35

That is because vaccinations affect physical matter, the physical body. Jesus affects people at a deeper spiritual level, which then, in turn, can manifest physically, according to my belief.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:36

she could have been desperate

She was desperate, because one of the spiritual beings he had created was possessing her child apparently. Way to go Jesus for making it about him. So if she hadn't passed his little test', he wouldn't have healed her daughter?

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:37

And her body still has to accept the vaccine at a very basic level. If she wriggled with such strength they weren't able to administer the vaccine she would have a problem receiving it's benefit.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:38

According to my belief meaning 'I have no evidence at all'. Maybe that's how vaccinations work? Maybe they work on the spirit first?

capsium · 04/04/2015 23:38

Anyway I'll leave you to think it over. I'm going to bed now. Goodnight.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 23:41

The baby, at that age, is probably unaware of the injection coming, and it's over before they know it. What about unconscious people?

catkind · 05/04/2015 00:38

If the mother has faith, her daughter's mental illness can be cured.
If the mother doesn't have faith, it can't? So then the daughter's continued mental illness would be directly a consequence of the mother's lack of faith, no?

If mental illness has a spiritual dimension, are you not saying that people who are mentally ill must have something wrong with their spiritual dimension too? Does that mean they don't have enough faith, or what? I don't think you can mean it like that; but you seemed to be saying mental illness is somehow less a real thing than more obviously physical illness - the mother's faith was particularly important in a case of "possession", by which I am assuming from your subsequent replies you do mean that which manifests itself in the real dimension as mental illness. Do you think Jesus could have cured the daughter without the mother's faith if she had a broken leg instead?

For me it's a side track though. The main problem I find with the new testament morality isn't any little incident like this to quibble about. It's that jesus in the new testament confirms and supports the scriptures, the old testament, where all that wholesale slaughter of innocents is carried out by god or on his instructions.

capsium · 05/04/2015 08:27

catkind

Mental illness is very real. We know (at least the scientific community know) there can be actual differences seen in the brain physiology of people suffering from clinical mental illnesses. I am not disputing this.

Jesus healed real illnesses and overcame death.

The spiritual dimension to illnesses, that is the spiritual realm affecting the physical / manifesting physically, is portrayed in the Bible. Jesus healed through miraculous spiritual healing. He didn't operate, or use physical medicine, or long sessions of psychotherapy. He commanded, spoke, physically touched people and they touched him / his garments.

In the all instances where Jesus heals, if I am not mistaken, in the Bible, there are professions of faith, from the people who love them or the sick themselves. The illnesses are not caused by lack of faith (as discussed in my earlier posts - shown in the healing of the blind man). But faith is professed and Jesus heals.

This suggests to me faith is instrumental for receiving the blessings of God. It is like any gift, a person has to acknowledge, accept it, in order to fully receive it. Otherwise is would be left there acknowledged, unused, unappreciated.

Happy Easter.

capsium · 05/04/2015 08:28

Unacknowledged. Typo.