Religion is good because it gives the believer an objective and absolute standard of morality

[Vivacia]

(This idea was introduced in another thread, but it felt like an unfair tangent for that thread to be taking in my humble opinion, but one I'd be interested in discussing).

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the statement.

Secondly, I feel as an atheist I have an objective morality, if not an absolute one.

So you think it was literally a demon? And if the mother hadn't been faithful, what, then it wasn't a demon? Or the child couldn't be cured because the mother didn't believe?

cat if you look at how, functionally, the word spirit is applied in the Bible it describes lots of things. Words are described as spirit. Illness, emotions moods are caused by spirits, the work of the Holy Spirit includes healing and bringing back to life. Demons were evil spirits, in that they caused malfunction or dysfunction, bad things to happen.

So if a type of thinking, emotional state, mood and speaking can be dysfunctial, be symptomatic and causative of a dysfunctional mental state, this could be described as 'demonic' in the Biblical sense. If there were no or few glimpses of lucidity and right thinking, it could be described as 'possession'.

Our language is not absolute, in that meanings can change over time. So 'literally' is a moot point.

cat Legion was cured without involving other people's faith, other than his own, that is the man who was afflicted and subsequently cured - as he worshipped Jesus and ran to Him, when Jesus was still far away. So I think establishing and causing faith to manifest is shown to be important, either from the person being healed or someone who cares about them.

No it's not the people. Most Christians I've encountered have been friendly, welcoming people. But I was not born into a Christian family, in fact not even in this country. It's not an integral part of my upbringing. I've encountered Christianity through being at a church school, than mainly through friends during me graduate years - Alpha course.

I feel a bit out of my depth to be honest on the few occasions I've sat through a bible study. I do try to regularly take dd to our village church, she was baptised there. It might seem had to understand for people who are familiar with it all but all the rituals of the church, the structures are all a bit alien to me - literally if you could imagine what an alien would think.

If nothing else I do do prayer occasionally and hope Him up there actually listens even though I know I'm only a fair weather believer.

I don't know really, i never GOT faith...just never worked, i think for the same reasons that others on here are questioning and have difficulties reconciling the Bible. But I could clearly see that the Christian I know who have that faith and belief, have the benefit of what that faith can provide, on a personal level.....strength in praying and in believing in a God and also as a resource to draw on emotionally in tough times.

That's why I will take DD to the local church....With all the negative of religion, I've also made her wary of being brainwashed and to always think critically (as critically as a 10 year old can think...). She can choose to go all anti-God, anti-religion atheist if she decides to when she is older .....BUT, I believe there ARE good things she could take away from Christianity, or more specifically Faith, and that based on my experience, it is something that is easier to get out of then into (if you've had no exposure to it) when you are older.

Tbh queen I have not understood much about my faith mainly from attending church services in RL or organised groups, either. I get more from reading devotionals, watching a range of religious programming on TV, some bits I am able to appreciate more easily than other bits, to put it mildly. But it is easier to turn the TV off, than walk out of a service. The Bible Gateway website is good and makes it easy to look up half remembered scriptures in loads of different translations. And I pray for understanding and discernment.

^ I think now, I appreciate Church services more though.

But I think you have to make the decision to take that leap of faith first though, faith does not come from pure logic and reasoning.

I recently enjoyed the documentary about St Peter on BBC iplayer at the moment.

You're right queen it doesn't. It says in the Bible 'faith comes by hearing'. Here:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17 KJV)

You have to make a decision to believe it though or at least not dismiss, it out of hand, for understanding to take place. And be patient. Otherwise you prematurely reject a statement and do not pursue understanding of it.

Straight question caps, are you thinking the child had a mental illness, was possessed by some kind of supernatural being, or some third option? If mental illness, why is the mother's faith more significant than for any other kind of illness? (you said "the mother's faith was important if it is demon possession that is being spoken of"). If third option, what?

It doesn't matter, to me, cat. If illnesses and malfunction, of whatever sort, are described as evil, simply because they are not good - this may be perceived as illness today. People talking about spirits, Angels and Demons does not repulse or offend me.

Psychotropic medication generally affects thoughts and emotions, so people deal with a dysfunctional state of mind in this way today. Psychotherapy affects thought patterns more consciously, so is simarily used today. Dysfunctional thought patterns and states of mind can be due to And cause dysfunctional delusional beliefs too. So it follows a functional belief could affect a person positively. The beliefs of people we trust can also either reassure or conversely cause worry and anxiety.

In Biblical times, as I said before thought, feelings, emotions and health were seen and described in terms of the spiritual realm. Just because these things are seen as spiritual, in cause does not mean, they have no physical result which can be seen in the body or brain physiology.

The daughter was described as being possessed by demons. Personally I don't know how that would look to people in today's society. Possession is very rarely mentioned, it is a taboo subject, for good reason in part as abuses have taken place due to people's belief others are possessed. Similarly many abuses have taken place within mental health systems.

^ described in the Bible, that is. (1st paragraph) Typography omitted.

And just because the illnesses are seen as bad, in their dysfunction, does not mean the person has no hope of being healed or that they are to blame or their parents are (hereditary sin). Jesus' healing of the blind man shows this:

"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (John 9: 1-3 KJV)

Which (John 9 account) is a refreshing change from the current ideas of the 'deserving sick'.

Definitely, capsium :)

The whole narrative about the woman with the sick daughter is interesting, isn't it. I'm always struck by the fact Jesus didn't actually use the word for 'dog' which was always used as a derogatory racial slur, the translation Jesus used is closer to 'house-puppy' or loved 'doggy', a term of endearment rather than attack. I'm not completely sure what he meant by it, really, but given his behaviour in general am convinced this was not a racial slur. He spoke with a Samaritan woman, fed 4,000 Gentiles etc etc. It seems to me he was making some point to his disciples. They were the impatient ones, the ones who wanted to move on and leave the foreign woman in her grief and upset. At first Jesus behaved as they expected him to; ignoring her, mentioning the lost sheep of Israel, but then he turned and did something completely unexpected. he bantered with her, she bantered back, he praised her faith. He spoke to her, the lowest of the low, he healed her daughter. I think the disciples would have been stunned and taken aback and that was Jesus' intention for them, to look beyond their own upbringing and narrow prejudice. He kept doing that, in so many ways, you'd have thought they'd have learned by then

Yes, interesting, Mad. The disciples, I think, were quite impulsive at times. Like they didn't know exactly what to do with themselves.

The fact that people in those days didn't know the difference between mental health issues and possession doesn't mean there is not a difference that I can make logical deductions from. (Well, obviously, most people don't believe in the latter now, but I can't rule out some religious people believing in demons.)

If she had what would these days be regarded as mental health issues then blaming her mother's faith or lack of it is horrible. What do you think would have happened if the mother had not had faith?

The alternative seems to be some kind of supernatural action possessing the child, in which case I can't reason with it but I would find it very strange indeed that people in modern times would believe that existed.

catkind Jesus was not blaming the Canaanite woman for her daughter's illnesses due to lack of faith. (AsI said earlier, the John 9 account shows Jesus is not interested in apportioning blame to people for their illnesses.)

Yes, He encourages her to speak out in faith. In doing this her faith can be acknowledged to herself and others. Sometimes I think, it is only when you are asked a question, you know what you think about it. Have you experienced this? I have.

For God to bless a person, that person has to accept and acknowledge His blessing, in order to fully receive it. Otherwise it would be like attempting to give someone a present to someone, that they refuse to acknowledge or take. So faith in God, Jesus as the embodiment of God, was established.

cat Christian belief does include belief in the spiritual realm affecting all areas of life. I make no excuses for this belief. You have to look at how the word 'spirit' can be functionally used though, to understand more of exactly what a spirit is. It is not necessarily like the depictions in Medieval paintings...

Queen ... It did for me. I was the persuaded by the arguments, certainly not by a sudden warm and fluffy feeling. In fact, i could never be a naturalist atheist. It is an irrational position. Dualist atheism isn't but i don't think there are many of those around.

What's a naturalist atheist or Dualist atheism Bongo?

Well, I do remember being moved to tears when I heard the Easter story explained and singing some of the songs of praise....whatever that was about.

You see, I do believe in the existence of some sort of a God that created humans, and there is some sort of a special God-Human connection, a connection that doesn't exist with, say, animals.

Otherwise, morality would not exist, humans would not even be aware of it, let alone discuss it and the finer details of what IS right and wrong and the why, because right and wrong would not matter, killing would just be an amoral act, you do what you have to do for survival either of yourself or your own race, morality would not even matter e.g. matter I doubt animals when killing each other even think about morality.

I have no idea whether the above comes under any established schools of thought but it's what I think.

It does sound like there is some Christian belief, within you, that you can explore, if you wish to, queen.

I find animals a great mystery. They are shown to use tools, have emotions ( there is a YouTube video that shows a Gorilla grieving over her pet kitten that was run over), they have complex communications, complex relationships with humans, their own version of medicines (elephants, from what I recall, will eat certain plants when sick. Did you read the crow stories I posted earlier?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31795681

Yes I did, it shows a degree of empathy, but do you think animals have the concept of or an awareness of morality?

or lack of morality / evil? In the same way as humans.

I think they may be have, queen. Some have quite complex societies. It is tinteresting how ants will retrieve their dead for example. And how they will defend each other and people, sometimes to the death. I read once how a herd of cows crowded round a farmer to protect him from a rampaging bull that was about to gore him. One died in the process, from what I remember. For us to understand it all is another matter, though.