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Philosophy/religion

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Religion is good because it gives the believer an objective and absolute standard of morality

638 replies

Vivacia · 25/03/2015 18:33

(This idea was introduced in another thread, but it felt like an unfair tangent for that thread to be taking in my humble opinion, but one I'd be interested in discussing).

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the statement.

Secondly, I feel as an atheist I have an objective morality, if not an absolute one.

OP posts:
capsium · 07/04/2015 09:49

As in I don't own God but I do own my own individual constructs.

So what are we talking about, the actual living God or a construct, fall?

capsium · 07/04/2015 09:51

The 'god construct' you talk about, is not the one of my community, fall.

capsium · 07/04/2015 09:53

my community, either - that should say.

vdbfamily · 07/04/2015 11:42

Caps....just want to take my hat off to you for your patience.I am following thread but just feel I do not have the energy to join it.Reading the Bible to try and know God more fully is such a different experience to reading the Bible in order to pick holes in it. It is impossible to argue with people who have their minds made up as they will always chuck in a red herring. I am happy to engage with anyone truly seeking to find truth but just don't have the energy anymore to engage with those who just delight in making offensive comments about God. It actually makes me feel quite sick inside . Thankfully God is so much bigger than any of us and understands the heart of us all. Just wanted to encourage you. Christ is Risen. He is risen indeed. Hallelujah.

thegreatestMadHairDayinhistory · 07/04/2015 11:57

Smile vdb.

I'm not able to be on mn much as on holiday and patchy coverage but just wanted to echo your thoughts and encourage caps as well.

capsium · 07/04/2015 13:07

Thanks, vdb and MadHair. I've been out for a couple of hours watching the wildlife, with DH and DC, at a local nature reserve. Lovely place to chill and contemplate. Smile

headinhands · 07/04/2015 13:47

It actually makes me feel quite sick inside

So you find god's actions in the OT less distasteful than analysis of said actions?

capsium · 07/04/2015 14:39

Your analysis is not without bias though head. We analysed the Abraham and Isaac account earlier. I and others gave our interpretations, which you completely dismissed.

If you dismiss everything that justifies an action you are left disagreeing with the action. If you don't, you end up either not disagreeing with the action or at the very least it leaves room for further contemplation.

You seem to have made up your mind, at least for the present time regarding how you view God in the Bible. It is not one that I, as a Christian believer would agree with. There does not seem to be be any further contemplation from you...forgive me if I'm wrong.

Somebody refusing to see the good, in a much loved one of somebody's, that they see as good, understandably can give them a sickening feeling.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/04/2015 15:33

Head, what religions did you examine and how did you examine them?

capsium · 07/04/2015 15:53

Tbh feeling such revulsion and hatred, from your understanding of the Bible and not being able to see any good, must feel pretty sickening to you, head. It is not a position I like to take. It is one of full of horror, hence I seek the good in whatever I come across, seek to understand.

So it is not surprising, to me, from your position of revulsion, head, you prefer to believe there is no basis to believe in God. I just cannot bear the revulsion and horror though, because I cannot dismiss Christ and refuse to believe the revulsion and horror, that you see, is all there is, to see, so look for ways to understand. You attempting to convince me, that all that depicted in the Bible is horrific, just makes me want to look further and not trust your interpretation is all there is, head.

headinhands · 07/04/2015 15:56

I and others gave our interpretations, which you completely dismissed.

It doesn't matter how many people agree or disagree with you or me, that is not what determining reality is about. The reality is that the OT depicts it's god behaving with unspeakable cruelty, and as yet none of the Christians has offered a robust or consensual apology.

headinhands · 07/04/2015 16:09

I used logic, I thought of the claims, such as those of Islam and Buddhism (at the start of the journey I was still a Christian). I used the same reasoning I do for everything else, I applied the same rules for establishing the likely reality to the religions as I do with all the other stuff in my life. Granted, I have not examined all religions, for all my jesting I actually haven't spent too much time thinking about the Greek gods, but the thinking I have done has led me to where I am, that there is no evidential basis for any of the main religions and if I wanted to be intellectually coherent I should really be following all of them, but they are clearly distinct and exclusive from eachother, well some more than others! And then the other stuff came crashing in like the discomfort I had had about the OT, the free will explanation not standing up to scrutiny. As you can imagine I am still making sense of it all.

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 07/04/2015 16:10

In spite of the problems inherent in the bible as it stands, I would never suggest that it be rewritten to appeal to modern sensibilities. It is an ancient text that has had an abiding influence throughout history since it was first put together. It should be preserved exactly as it is, with all its inconsistencies and its strange mix of morality and brutality in tact. It would not be right to try to iron out the kinks, excise or alter the unpalatable parts.

However, preserving the bible as it is, means that careful interpretation and assessment is required if it is to be used as a source of moral guidance in today’s society. There can be disagreement over which parts are more of historical interest than of relevance to those seeking moral instruction today. Even when there is agreement that a certain part is still relevant, there can be disagreement about the message contained. It is often unclear what is to be considered literally and what metaphorically true. The God of the OT comes across as often angry and vengeful and very different to that of the NT – as puzzling for some Christians as it is for outsiders. Throughout, the behaviour of those portrayed in the bible – even the ‘good guys’ - can sometimes look a bit parochial, if not unfair and prejudiced, from a modern perspective.

All in all, this situation gives gleeful debunkers plenty of scope. (Debunking is easy – no intellectual prowess required!) But aside from making debunking easy, the presence of obscure, ambiguous, or otherwise unedifying material that seems to condone, or at least not condemn, what many now regard as immoral behaviour in amongst indisputably luminous and uplifting passages, makes using the bible as a moral guide rather difficult at times - particularly for the average person in the street with no interest in detailed analysis. (And even those who have studied the bible in depth disagree with each other on meaning!)

With this in mind, I was trying to think of a modern simple secular standard of morality to which the bible might usefully be compared and contrasted, so that a running commentary providing such a comparison could be added to the original text.

The best document for such a task that I could think of is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) - and the attendant human responsibilities implied by the rights listed. The UDHR was put together by a group of people representing most cultures and religions and contains a distillation of the wisdom of the world into a single body of beliefs to provide guidance in action. (Interestingly, in recent times, the UDHR has been criticised by some Muslims for being a secular version of Judeo-Christian morality that breaches Sharia law.)

In the sort of version of the bible I am envisaging, if behaviour or advice in the bible contravenes the UDHR, it would be acknowledged explicitly in an annotation and some historical context or explanation given – just as behaviour or advice that presages a particular article of the UDHR would be highlighted.

Atheists are always going to throw the baby out with the bath water. Why should Christians not save the baby and discard the (murky) bath water by doing their own respectful version of debunking?

headinhands · 07/04/2015 16:12

not being able to see any good

There is good, but there is also awful. It doesn't matter how wonderful the good bits are when there are the horrid bits too.

headinhands · 07/04/2015 16:20

Your analysis is not without bias

I am just using the words, the same words you have. There isn't much ambiguity in this passage:

then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29'Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. 30'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.…

So here we have an infinitely powerful god threatening parents with the notion of eating their own children's bodies if they don't do what he says. Please explain how you justify that?

BigDorrit · 07/04/2015 16:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

vdbfamily · 07/04/2015 16:37

I like that last comment Head. It is part of the Christian message really although I know it is not how you meant it. However hard we try,in our own strength, to be 'good' humans, there are always the horrid bits lurking.And however good we try to be it will never eliminate the horrid completely. That is why we all need forgiveness through Christ.
I know you think we are all ignoring what we want to about God to just make Him nice and fluffy but we are really not.
It is just very hard to explain to someone who wants to prove the opposite. There are pages and pages on the internet, of theologically trained Christians, giving far better explanations than me for all of the events that atheists think make God a monster.If you really wanted an explanation you could find one. What I read from Genesis to Relevation is of a God who continually wanted a relationship with His people but his people continually turned their backs on Him and worshipped idols, Every single time he drew them back to Him, they pulled away again. Even when Jesus rode into Jerusalem he was hailed as a hero and a few days later the same people were shouting for him to be crucified. So there are no surprises for me today when people are so rude and disrespectful to God.It is nothing new but it pains me,Mainly because I know how much he loves the people making those comments about him, but also because I know how patient God is in allowing people time to find Him but if ultimately they continue to reject him, they will be judged for that. Is that unfair? I do not personally think it is unfair but it does make me sad,

capsium · 07/04/2015 16:43

head, firstly it is not for me to have to justify.

As how I seek further understanding primarily I would read more of the text than the short quotation you have given me. I would pray for understanding. I would think it over, I also might read some more people's interpretations. I would essentially take a lot of time to mull it over.

But one thing I do appreciate from this, is how fearlessly stubborn people can be and the potential, in a group of people, to cause great good or evil. Because I believe to move God, who is Divine, to a such a level, such wrath, would have required something colossal.

BigDorrit · 07/04/2015 16:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

vdbfamily · 07/04/2015 16:58

as Capsium says and as I have previously suggested,if you Google the quote you will find all sorts of explanations. God is not making them eat their children,their disobedience has led to the seige of Jerusalem which in turn has left them so desperate for food they are eating their children.He is warning them what their disobedience will result in.Is that not fair rather than unfair,to be warned what will happen if we continue to be wayward,Do we not do the same with our children?
What I find hard to understand is this. It is okay to reject God,to say he does not exist, to blame him for not stopping bad things but actually just think what the world would be like if everyone lived like Jesus did. Every single person in this world shared all they had with others,had no posessions of their own. Loved everyone else as much as they loved themselves.Totally unselfish to the point of laying down our lives for each other.There would be no child abuse,domestic abuse,murder,famine,war,greed,hate. So much stuff that God gets blamed for not putting an end to.It is us that need to put an end to it.

capsium · 07/04/2015 17:00

Why should they have to?

They don't. However, Christianity has shaped our culture for the past 2000 years. It has been considered important enough for missionaries to risk life and limb over. Christ has not been forgotten in 2000 years. Christian believers believe God came to earth, as Christ, performed miracles, allowed Himself to be put to death and miraculously rose from the dead. Amazing. How can you not be even curious?

vdbfamily · 07/04/2015 17:04

I don't think they are twisting things at all, they are studying the context of when something is written,by whom and to whom and then offering an explanation to those of us who do not have quite so much time to study all thew history. If I read a book today documenting everyday life in for example Libya today,I might finde some of it shocking.It is unrealistic to expect a document written over 2 thousand years ago to be easy to read and understand today in the UK as culturally our norms are so different.

BigDorrit · 07/04/2015 17:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

capsium · 07/04/2015 17:17

Well, I, humbly, suggest you come to it from a more neutral stance then, BigD.

Now I am pretty stubborn, at times, myself, you could say it runs in my family. I'm pretty opinionated too, so like to discuss and debate. Not much shocks me within a debate. However your somewhat, ahem... robust...style (as it appears to me) of discourse means many will not feel able to tell you the reasons why they choose to believe, as they do. Maybe their explanations might give you your answer?

headinhands · 07/04/2015 17:24

far better explanations than me

I'm interested in how you explain it though vbd. These apologisers don't have one justification though, and none of them work unless you actively collude with it. I think what frustrates me is how utterly poor the explanations are. Obviously having once been a christian I have myself managed to accommodate it, but it appeared to be a mixture of ignoring and taking comfort from other trusted christians being happy to ignore it too. That's what I think anyway, I know I never felt peace about it to coin a christian phrase.

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