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Original poster

Religion is good because it gives the believer an objective and absolute standard of morality

638 replies

Vivacia · 25/03/2015 18:33

(This idea was introduced in another thread, but it felt like an unfair tangent for that thread to be taking in my humble opinion, but one I'd be interested in discussing).

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the statement.

Secondly, I feel as an atheist I have an objective morality, if not an absolute one.

OP posts:
capsium · 04/04/2015 11:33

keep I see Salvation as being at one with God. If you don't accept Him or what He stands for, His nature, how could you be at one with Him?

Would you want to be?

Would you deny yourself? But that would mean accepting Him over yourself...

headinhands · 04/04/2015 11:45

what he stands for, his nature

Which you don't seem to have any idea what that is?

headinhands · 04/04/2015 11:51

The head teacher analogy doesn't work because

A, jesus didn't have a limit to the people he could heal
B, the whole issue was about her race, not her ability to pay a fee

If I went to a private school run by Chinese people and they said I couldn't join because I was British and british people are inferior to Chinese people, I wouldn't be grovelling. I probably would be on the phone to the council though. The issue was that she was not Jewish and that she was inferior. That's racism. Is Jesus stilll racist?

capsium · 04/04/2015 11:52

head I do have some idea. I see Jesus as the embodiment of God. He fed the hungry, He healed the sick, He forgave, He brought back to life, He sacrificed Himself for us, He rose from the dead, He was compassionate.

But I do not fully know all there is to know. Who in this life does? I learn more every day.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 11:57

feigning worship just to receive a reward

What a sorry way to portray this interaction. This woman, her child with a serious mental illness, desperate for her child to be better, hears about a miracle worker who is healing people for no cost. If God loves people and is morally superior to me he wouldn't give a stuff about what she believed, he'd see that she had a child who was suffering, and that would be enough, bringing her race into is just appalling. Bringing her religion into is vile.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 12:00

fed the hungry, healed the sick

Drowned the earth, killed every first born of the Egyptians to get back at Pharaoh, ordered a man to be stoned for picking up sticks. Why don't you worry about the context of the nice bits? But stipulate that the disgusting bits are actually, somehow, full of gods wondrous love and mercy?

capsium · 04/04/2015 12:00

head

A: Jesus did have a mission priority, a specific task to complete. He was sent to the Jews first. This is what He stated in His interactions with the Canaanite woman. And He fulfilled Her request.

B: The issue was about Her sincerity. God is not there to be used, utilised only for His blessing, only to be dropped and forgotten. He wants a relationship with us. His priority was to those He already had a Covenant relationship with. But He did fulfil Her request when He say she was not just intending to use Him.

capsium · 04/04/2015 12:00

^saw not say. typo.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 12:03

utilised only for his blessing

That women had no way of healing her daughters mental health issue. If I saw someone drowning I wouldn't care how they felt about me as a person, I would be moved to do something out of empathy. If I stopped to query if they would keep in touch with me after I'd saved them I'd be a bloody monster.

capsium · 04/04/2015 12:04

Maybe because I interpret things differently to you head? I am one for seeing all the shades of grey and look for the shades in between the shades. It is what I am like. Christian belief provides me with structure - without it I could argue my way in and out of lots of things.

capsium · 04/04/2015 12:08

head if you were complaining about some one else's mental health and I was a doctor, I would have to establish you knew what you were talking about, ie your complaint was valid. This woman was complaining about possession by demons. Jesus, as the authority, had to establish her reliability.

headinhands · 04/04/2015 13:00

since he didn't already know?

capsium · 04/04/2015 13:04

head if you go to an accident and emergency department, at a hospital on a Saturday night, there can be lots of shouting and screaming people demanding help.

The hospital operates triage in order to prioritise, and ascertain which are the genuine emergencies, who are rightly there. Because people can be there for the wrong reason, even if they shout loudly, and seem completely desperate.

capsium · 04/04/2015 13:09

since he didn't already know?

I expect He will have already known but questioned the Canaanite woman in order to establish, make manifest, her faith to her and those around her - so her faith could be acknowledged.

catkind · 04/04/2015 13:10

Oh, it's a diagnosis process now? How does the degree of grovelling by the mum help to establish whether the child has a mental illness or not? (Or do you literally think she was possessed by demons, whatever those are?) And may I remind you this is supposed to be god in human form, not a harrassed doctor on a Saturday night.

capsium · 04/04/2015 13:17

There were often crowds and crowds of people around Jesus, cat. Yes, He was God in human form. Fully human. He had to focus on one thing at a time.

Grovelling? I can assure you parents are grilled in diagnostic processes. I know, my DC underwent a Statutory Assessment for a Statement of Special Educational Needs.

queensansastark · 04/04/2015 13:20

I don't understand. Are the atheists trying to understand how Christians see things. Do they even accept or respect that Christians do see things differently. Or trying to undermine and prove that someone's else's faith and belief just don't make sense and are therefore just wrong.
Capsium. I don't know how you have the energy to keep on posting and stay so calm tbh...but it's interesting reading though.

capsium · 04/04/2015 13:23

Thanks, queen. What can I say, I've been in for the odd 'grilling' before. Grin I find it strengthens my own faith in one way, though, as I meditate and re evaluate what I have read from the Bible.

catkind · 04/04/2015 13:38

She wasn't grilled about the daughter's condition though capsium was she? He only wanted to know about the mother's faith.

I think most racists believe their race is "genuinely different". How does happening to be born into the wrong tribe make someone less than human? Just no.

queensansa, I think discussing religion is important - after all if I was wrong and it's all true, it would be the most important mistake in my life. I think it's important to keep testing my convictions. I don't often do it in real life because I wouldn't want to fall out with religious friends about it, we know we disagree but can live and let live. (Except the friends who were using religion to justify homophobia and other nastiness, I'm no longer friends with them.) On here I think it's fair to assume that people wouldn't be in the discussion if they weren't happy to discuss.

capsium · 04/04/2015 13:56

cat the mother's faith was important if it is demon possession that is being spoken of. If she was not faithful how could she know what this was? How it would manifest? If faith is required in order to be able to accept God's blessing, believing required in order to be able to look, then see, then if the mother's faith was not established and made manifest she would not have been able to accept and receive.

Binkybix · 04/04/2015 14:00

I'm just discussing the OP about whether religion is good because it gives an absolute sense of morality and sometimes you need to discuss specifics when they're given as examples to do that.

I think this example is helpful because it shows Jesus behaving immorally which if absolutism is claimed, means that either Jesus was not always perfect or context of the time was important to his standards, so it's not absolute.

As I've said, I'm glad that many religious people do apply the context!

queensansastark · 04/04/2015 14:02

I agree it is important to discuss religion. But you must have seen some of the other threads or even some parts of this thread where militant atheists kind of goad Christians into a debate, or even make personal attacks on others for their beliefs. Sometimes it's the tone.

On deciding about religion. Do you choose religion or does religion choose you, depending on where you were born, your upbringing etc.? I think Christianity decided to give up on me. And I'm sort of at peace with that.

capsium · 04/04/2015 14:03

Being born into the 'wrong tribe' does not make people less human, cat.

In Biblical times, non Jews could be brought into the Covenant relationship with God, if they wanted this. However the Jewish people were born into the Covenant with God (but could reject Him.)

The questioning of the Canaanite woman establishes her faith, makes it (causes it to) manifest, it shows that she wanted a relationship with God.

queensansastark · 04/04/2015 14:05

As I've said, I'm glad that many religious people do apply the context!

Agree. But sadly, many don't.

capsium · 04/04/2015 14:08

queen if you don't mind me asking why do you think Christianity decided to give up on you? I recognise people, who are members of a church can behave cruelly and give up on people.