Hakluyt's Voyages.......

[Hakluyt]

........just in case anyone fancies continuing them.

We were, I think, discussing the issue around dating dinosaur bones........among other things.

JassyRadlett Sat 08-Nov-14 14:59:18
You still haven't answred why God makes it easier for white people to follow him.

He didn’t.

A comment like that is implying God favours whites, which is ludicrous seeing as Jesus came from the Middle East.

And you also seem to make the mistake of thinking because people sit in church pews (usually so they can get their kids in good schools!), then they’re automatically saved. But John 3:16 doesn’t say “whosever sits in church shall not perish but have eternal life”. That would be WORKS, and we are saved by grace and not by our own works.

those apostles decided to go towards Rome, the world capital of the time, so that's bad luck for people east and south of there who wouldn't have access to the bible for centuries - so how could they accept God or christ? How could they follow gospels they had no access to?

Some apostles went, others stayed, Remember they were commissioned to go to the four corners of the world to preach the gospel. For others, the OT would have been their available guide until they learned that the Messiah had changed everything, as foretold.

Either way, given you reckon he loves each and every person as individuals, he gives some a big step up in the race for salvation because of where they were born.

Not at all. Remember that He promises “if you seek me you SHALL find me”. But you need to be open to the inner witness within your own spirit from the day you were born, that God exists. We have all faced that at some stage or another, only some try to stamp it out immediately because they are resistant to the idea. Even then He keeps sending reminders.

So he cares, but not enough to send his word in a way that didn't doom most of the world to hell for at least a millennium if not more.??No. Not consistent.
Actually, what is biblical, and is very consistent, is that there have been at least two separate episodes where EVERYONE in the whole world believed in Him (Adam and Eve, and Noah’s family after the flood). Despite this, as the numbers grew, some began to rebel against that inbuilt witness in our spirits, and turned against God, making their own false gods instead.

You're also forgetting that the OT was available to people before the Messiah came, and so no, they were not doomed for at least a millennium. Before the Messiah came, the OT believers were saved by "believing in Him BEFORE Christ came into the world, they looked TOWARDS the cross in faith, trusting it would be. After Christ came, we look BACKWARDS, trusting that HE DID come and pay the ultimate penalty for all of us.

Would you accuse me of psychologically manipulating you? Hopefully not. I would like to think you would be grateful for the warning and the choice to avoid the undesirable

You have no shred of evidence that hell is real so your analogy is nonsense. I may as well threaten you with Jahannam, the Muslim hell.

Unfortunately, using your own arguments, if the four year old didn't believe in God, or believed in a different god, she gets the same eternal punishment as her murderer

I am not convinced that a 4 year old is capable of making an adult choice to "trust in Him" - do you? I believe that God knows the heart of a person and does not hold babies accountable because they lack knowledge.

I also find the idea of a deity who would bring eternal punishment on the world for the act of their ancestors incompatible with the concept of a benevolent God.

I take it by "ancestors" you refer to Adam and Eve? You're getting the wrong end of the stick there. They were responsible for the fallen state of the world because they were the first to commit sin against God, but they were in no way responsible for your personal sins, Jassy, any more than I am. Or vice versa. Each man stands before God on judgement day with no excuses to hide behind, and blame-shifting just won't cut it.

Have you ever told a lie Jassy? What do we call someone who lies? A liar.
Have you ever stolen anything? What do we call someone who steals? A thief. Have you ever lusted after someone? Then the bible says you have committed adultery in your heart. So you are a liar, a thief and an adulterer, and you will one day have to stand before a Holy God on judgement day to account for these, and all your other sins.

Everyone who takes issue with this biblical message has their pride injured, and I understand what. Nobody likes to be told they are wrong. But it doesn't change the fact. If you break the law, you deserve the punishment. Only in this case there is a wonderful free gift available if you will accept it. And that's the difference.

Earlier you said that Japan, an unchristian nation, live the longest, as though that proved a point about not needing God. However, they have one of the highest suicide rates in the whole world.

^Africa, on the other hand, the country that suffers financial hardships, doesn’t even feature in the top 100 countries.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate^

Interestingly, the WHO statistics show Africa as the largest country on the map with the smallest amount of suicides.

1. Africa: not a country.

1. If you'd read the WHO info properly you'd know about the problems with these stats - it depends in what is reported and what is recorded by country, and recognises the issues around under-reporting and non-recording, and countries where suicide is illegal. Then you need to consider aces with near-nonexistent public health infrastructure. WHO warn against using the stats comparatively for this reason.

1. Since you did draw comparisons to try to make a point about godlessness and suicide rates, worth noting that well above Japan on the list is Lithuania, where more than 80% of the population identify as Christian.

headinhands, the bible mentions hell a lot. God is at least very fair with his warning and the bible says about God in 1 Timothy 2:4; "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

There you go again, Jassy, counting bums-on-seats in church as receiving the free gift of God. Sadly that is not always the case at all.

I did read about the stats, but since they are the only stats published then I have none other available to show you. They're not my stats!

i don't ask 'why animals' specifically, but why anything, ever? I have never wanted blood shed for me to forgive, I usually acknowledge that I have made mistakes and that others do too. You are advocating a system where a rapist murder will receive eternal bliss and a non-christian charity worker is tortured for for ever and ever.

I am not convinced that a 4 year old is capable of making an adult choice to "trust in Him" - do you?

That's not compatible with your assertion that everyone is born with knowledge of God, and then they turn away.

Your God changed the rules because of the actions of two people, according to you, and made his punishment of those two people eternal.

That sort of bonkers inconsistency with the idea of a benevent God is why most Cheistians treat the creation story as allegorical. It's not the reason I'm no longer a Christian, though.

And pickled, I'm not asking anyone to be responsible for my own actions. Don't worry your head about that.

I did read about the stats, but since they are the only stats published then I have none other available to show you. They're not my stats!

Then why bring them up? And if you don't count people who say in a census 'I'm Christian' or 'I believe in God' (different poll, lower but significant numbers) as christian, how do you know that Japan's numbers of true Christians aren't higher than anywhere else?

they have one of the highest suicide rates in the whole world

Christians in the UK commit suicide as much as non-christians. Ah but the christians who commit suicide aren't real christians, only why wouldn't christians be committing suicide all the time seeing that they are the target from the 'other side'. Get your portable goal posts here.

headinhands, i don't ask 'why animals' specifically

you asked at 12:54:07 "why would god need animals"...

I have never wanted blood shed for me to forgive, I usually acknowledge that I have made mistakes and that others do too.

That's nice. But I hate to point out the obvious; you're not Holy, and you're not God! You're a sinner just like me, and sin needs to be punished. Why is it ok for us to have a judicial system that punishes wrongdoing, but not God? You're forgetting the flip side to the coin, which is that you are immeasurably precious to God, He knows your every thought and watches your life intently. The Psalmist tells us in 139: 17 & 18:
How precious are your thoughts towards me, God!
How vast is the sum of them!
Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand —

You are advocating a system where a rapist murder will receive eternal bliss and a non-christian charity worker is tortured for for ever and ever.
I am not advocating anything, but the BIBLE is. Do you think charity workers automatically deserve heaven? What about Jimmy Savile then? What about other charity workers that have also committed rape, lies, theft, or committed adultery, because don't try to tell me they aren't out there.

And since you raised the hackneyed 'but everyone came from Noah' - I assume you're familiar with the Epic of Gilgamesh?

And even if the Noah thing was true, then it's still an unreasonable God who damns entire races because their ancestors turned away and subsequent generations had no knowledge. Incompatible with that God who loves all individuals.

headinhands Sat 08-Nov-14 20:46

Christians in the UK commit suicide as much as non-christians. Ah but the christians who commit suicide aren't real christians, only why wouldn't christians be committing suicide all the time seeing that they are the target from the 'other side'

There ya go, you're finally getting it
Actually it is possible that a true christian could commit the sin of suicide, because they do still sin you know.

Head, you forgot. Pickled only counts people as Christian if she can make them fit into the structure dictated by her literal interpretation of the bible. Just like all other evidence or facts - 'if they don't fit this structure they can't be real / didn't really believe in God / aren't really scientific'.

Beautifully convenient and comfortable world view. I almost envy her.

That's not compatible with your assertion that everyone is born with knowledge of God, and then they turn away. Of course it is. However, a 4 year old is going to have limited understanding. Implanted yes, but limited ability to reason and respond until they're older.

Your God changed the rules because of the actions of two people, according to you, and made his punishment of those two people eternal.
They began to suffer hardship and slowly decay, but they likely still trusted in God because although they were banished from the Garden of Eden, they were still in touch with God and followed Him.

It's not the reason I'm no longer a Christian, though.
What is your reason?

And pickled, I'm not asking anyone to be responsible for my own actions. Don't worry your head about that.

I'm not worried, I know we are all accountable for our own choice and walk in life.

Then why bring them up?

I suppose you could argue why bring up any stats seeing as they're all documented "as seen", which isn't always a true reflection. Anyway, to answer your question, I used them because they are a) non-religous, and b) headinhands quoted stats earlier about Japan, which seemed to conflict with these stats, so I thought it noteworthy enough to bring to her attention.

And if you don't count people who say in a census 'I'm Christian' or 'I believe in God' (different poll, lower but significant numbers) as christian, how do you know that Japan's numbers of true Christians aren't higher than anywhere else?

I don't, and actually, in places like China where the church is underground, no one is going to come forward for stats or they'll be arrested or worse!

What is your reason?

Read the thread.

Interesting reading your rationale on the stats. You used information you knew to be unreliable to try to make a debating point, including drawing conclusions you knew to be unsupported by evidence.

That there would be lying, wouldn't it?

head, you forgot. Pickled only counts people as Christian if she can make them fit into the structure dictated by her literal interpretation of the bible. Just like all other evidence or facts - 'if they don't fit this structure they can't be real / didn't really believe in God / aren't really scientific'.

Actually, the bible is consistent with this theme. There is no room for doubt!

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. (John 6:39)

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:2-3)

The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 5:20-21)

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. (2 Corinthians 5:1)

But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:16)

a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, (Titus 1:2)

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:5-7)

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13)

Jassy, I used the stats that were available, just as Head did.

have you got better stats?

GerundTheBehemoth Sat 08-Nov-14 16:13:08
Hello, just on the idea that evolution is historical - nope - if it happened in the past and has now stopped, that would be very weird indeed, given that mutation and natural selection still occur. But that's not the case, evolution is very much ongoing and observable, and the literature is full of examples. Here is my favourite, an incipient (and rapid) speciation event that can be observed in many British gardens: blackcaps.

Mutation and natural selection fit better with the creation model than the evolutionary one actually, which is why it is observable. Evolution is about changing from “goo to you” but your blackcaps ‘natural selection’ have not evolved into anything else, they are still the same KIND: birds!

You knew the stars were meaningless as comparators, and you used them for the basis of comparison. Saying 'they were available' is weak defence for trying to wilfully mislead people.

I'm not trying to back up your argument so I have no need to seek statistics in an area that is acknowledged to be impossible to quantify statistically in many places.

'They wouldn't commit suicide if they really believed in God' is a fairly sad argument too, particularly using the passages you quote.

'They wouldn't commit suicide if they really believed in God

I said this? where?

Saying 'they were available' is weak defence for trying to wilfully mislead people.

I would be misleading if I had tried to cut and paste without adding the discrepancies however, they are the WHO stats, so if you find their map colours misleading then take it up with them, not me!

If you tried to find better stats I doubt you could, which is why, I suspect, you "have no need to seek statistics" as you put it

All 10,000 extant bird species are ONE 'kind'? Wow, never heard THAT broad a definition for 'kind' before, it's usually somewhere between genus and family, not class. I guess that would have saved space on the Ark, though you would then need one hell of a lot of post-Ark mutation and natural selection to produce ostriches, pelicans, plovers, swans, parrots, owls, penguins, albatrosses, cotingas and all the rest from a single pair of founder generic birds in a couple of thousand years

Of course, by that rationale all mammals (including humans) are also just one kind.

WHO themselves say they're misleading and used for comparison, and moreover that they aren't WHO stats - they are just national stats collected in different ways under different social, cultural and legal conditions.

All of that was in the wiki article, let alone reading further.

If you need stars to prove your point, I suggest you find better ones. I think your theory was bullshit, so I don't feel the need to look for non-existent statistics to support it. I particularly don't see the need to wuldully mislead my audience in the hope they wouldn't notice I was lying.

You're right, you did allow that 'true Christians' can commit suicide - how nice that you get to be the arbiter of who's a true Christians and who's not!