Hakluyt's Voyages.......

[Hakluyt]

........just in case anyone fancies continuing them.

We were, I think, discussing the issue around dating dinosaur bones........among other things.

to enjoy an eternity in heaven anyway, knowing that others are being hideously tortured

I can't remember which religious book I read it in now. It may have been a mormon one, but it could have been the bible. It said you would be able to see and hear the suffering of those who didn't get to go to heaven. It made it sound like one of the highlights of getting there. Like being in the royal box at Wimbledon

As I said to you before, Jimmy Savile was an atheist charity aid promoter. He deserves hell just as much as you and I. What he did was horrendous. I seem to recall the thief on the cross believed he was unforgiveable. He said in Luke 23:41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds;”

Do you actually think I deserve to suffer for eternity? Do actually think a thief deserves to be crucified? I don't deserve eternal punishment, no one does. Punishment yes, but eternal is barbaric and in no way logical.

I was using the analogy to show people’s mistakes as broken cups

Some are more broken then others. Would it be fair for a judge to send someone who hadn't paid their TV license to prison for 40 years while letting off a rapist because the rapist believed that the judge wanted to let him off? Utter nonsense.

JassyRadlett Sun 09-Nov-14 00:31:51
That's fine - just so long as you're aware that you sound like you're deciding who's a true Christian and who isn't. ??
You’re wrong. The bible makes it clear who is a true Christian, so that we can be sure. What I am –repeatedly—saying is that only the individual and God know the heart, I would not hazard a guess. It is each person’s responsibility to “work out your own salvation”. And no, that doesn’t mean try to do ‘works’ for it; it means be responsible entirely for it.

God loves each individual and considers them individually precious.
Yes, true.

God enabled everyone to have knowledge of the (early) OT by only leaving Noah and family alive, and later sent the apostles and evangelists to spread Christianity.?
Not strictly the 100% picture, but certainly some of it. You’ve forgotten to Add Romans 1:19 where we are clearly told “that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.”

Furthermore, in case there is any doubt about the inbuilt witness within them, we are also told; “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Isn’t it interesting that one current tool of satan is to try and usurp those clearly seen and understood attributes of God seen through His creation through the lie of evolution.

?So here's my issue. Let's take a young man and a young woman - say an Aztec and a Murri Australian, in the year 1200 AD, assuming a literal biblical history.??They have no idea about a Hebraic or Christian God. Their ancestors turned from God so long ago that their societies have developed their own, wildly different creation stories. Their cultures are built around those beliefs.??The apostles sent to spread the word had no idea their homelands even existed in the north, south, east and west to which they'd been sent.
Your scenario is well answered with the fact that;

1. What is known about God is evident within them
2. His attributes, power and nature, are all evident externally, being understood through what is made, so they are without excuse.

Your fictitious Aztec man and Murri woman would indeed be held as individually precious to Him, and redemption is for everyone. The bible in 1 Timothy 2:4 says “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth….whether Jew or Greek, whether slave or free, whether male or female…” (Galatians 3:28 & 1 Corinthians 12:13)

So God, who holds each of this Aztec man and Murri woman as individually precious to him, and as deserving of redemption as anyone living closer to Rome at that time, is regretfully content to see them and millions like them suffer for eternity
?You are right God hold each person individually precious but you are incorrect about His contentment to see them suffer for eternity. 2 Peters 3:9 says “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” The Bible also leaves us with no doubt: "Christ died for sins once for all" (1 Peter 3:18)

GerundTheBehemoth Sun 09-Nov-14 08:22:21
Sorry pickled, but if you think that all extant birds evolved from a single common ancestor over the last few thousand years, then you think evolution is a much, MUCH, faster, more dramatic and more powerful process than I or any evolutionary biologist does!

The bible doesn’t tell us exactly how many different types of bird or fish that God created, but what it DOES make crystal clear is that God created “each kind”.

Genesis 1: 20 shows us “God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.”

So in evolutionary terms you will never see a change of kind. All of this talk of natural selection proving evolution is nonsense. Like I said, it fits the biblical model because adaptation is NOT a change of kind, which evolution promotes. Promotes without evidence, I might add, you know, the whole “goo-to-you” nonsense.

How come whales evolving from land mammals is a change of 'kind' but (for example) penguins evolving from flying landbirds is not, but merely 'slight adaptation'?

There is not a single shred of evidence (other than speculation) that penguins used to fly! But even if they did, they’re still a penguin, right? I’ve looked at the theorised evolutionary changes with penguins and I can’t see a single picture that doesn’t look like a …. penguin!

headinhands Sun 09-Nov-14 10:27:46
true christian can mean anything though can't it.

No. It can't.

Without a clear and definitive list the bible can be used to justify the likes of the Westboro' baptists and all other denominations.

The bible DOES provide a clear and definitive list.

You'd think god would have cleared up such confusion instead of leaving it so wide open considering how vitally important it is.

He did. But He also knew that people, out of their own rebellious hearts, would refuse to accept what is written: “For even though they knew God, they did not honour Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools” Romans 1: 21-22)

The false Christian's think they're right, as you do. And because of it will end up in hell.

Anyone who is open to God will receive more knowledge. God promises “"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” Matthew 7:7. And of course, God has indwelt in every human heart “knowledge” of Him, together with understanding of His attributes, power and divine nature”, which they choose to turn to, or away from.

Because it's so important the information is universal and clear, you could even pass the information on by pictures. We know how important it is not to be misunderstood. Which is so far removed from gods approach to something supposedly even more important than just a physical death.

You’re absolutely right, it is very important the information is universal and clear. And as for the importance? The bible discusses losing an eye. Would you sell two eyes for a billion pounds? Probably not. Would you sell just one then? Probably not; most people find their ability to see is more precious than money.

SO if your eyesight is that important, it stands to reason that the rest of you is, even more so. So yes, I agree with you, it is even more important than just a physical death. Which is why God makes it CLEAR, and gives warning after warning after warning.

HouseOfBamboo Sun 09-Nov-14 10:31:00
You are quite right, I don't get it, because the model you describe makes absolutely no sense. According to your point:??"5. The moment you first believe you are sealed by God's Holy Spirit irrevocably and forever."??Then anyone can get to heaven as long as they have once 'first believed' - even if they then go on to disbelieve, or live a life of crime?

The minute you receive the free gift of eternal life and are sealed with God’s Holy spirit, you enter into a completely different situation. Yes you are redeemed from eternal damnation, but you are under more strict guidelines with how to live your life. And of course with more strict guidelines comes more strict punishment. Hebrews 12:6 says “because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

Further verses are also shown (not an exhaustive list):

• Deuteronomy 8:5: - “Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the LORD your God disciplines you”.
• Psalm 94:12 - “Blessed is the one you discipline, LORD, the one you teach from your law;”
• Proverbs 3:11 - “My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline, and do not resent his rebuke”
• Proverbs 3:12 - “because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.”
• Revelation 3:19 - “Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.”

Incidentally, the 'free gift' you describe isn't quite so free when you consider that you have to do the intellectual equivalent of selling your soul to perform the mental contortions to get it all to make sense.

You don’t have to DO anything; that’s the whole point. It’s all about what HE has done for us to free us. There is no selling of your soul, only freeing of it; and there is no performing mental contortions to get something so simple to make sense. It's all very straightforward.

headinhands Sun 09-Nov-14 10:33:08
Why did god hold Adam and Eve accountable for something they did before they knew the difference between right and wrong.

Okay, a couple of things here. One is that they DID know right from wrong. They were CLEARLY instructed in Geneis 2:16 that they could eat from ANY free in the garden except just that one, and if they did so, it would be disobedience to God and result in death. In Genesis 3:3 we see Eve telling the serpent that God said they can’t eat from that tree, and if they do they will die. She made it very clear she had full understanding. They had been CLEARLY warned by God that they would surely die if they did.

And why punish all their descendants. That's grotesque.

God didn’t say He would punish other people for Adam and Eve’s disobedience; He said THEY would die as a result for their sins, not that everyone else would shoulder the blame. The act of Adam and Eve sinning introduced sin to the world though, and that’s when the impact affected everyone else. If a block of flats gets burn down by arsonists, the consequence of that is everyone living in the block of flats ends up with burnt homes, it’s not just the arsonists that experience the inconvenience. Once sin entered the world, so did decay, disease, and death.

and given you a way of escape??That's chilling. Imagine my husband said 'because you burnt my dinner I should actually punch you, but I'm so nice that I'm going to give you a way to escape being punched by me, aren't I lovely?'

God isn’t your husband and isn’t saying He will punish anyone for a burnt dinner. He is Holy, and therefore cannot accept ungodliness, but has given everyone the same choice to live in harmony with Him by accepting His free gift “believing in Him”, or to ignore the warnings and live with the eternal consequences of that.

HouseOfBamboo Sun 09-Nov-14 10:39:46
Pickled - also, I really don't understand your position with regard to the lack of uncertainty. Are you certain that you are 'saved'? According to your 'belief not deeds' model, you ought to be pretty certain

It’s not MY ‘belief not deeds’ model; it’s God’s and is consistently outlined very clearly in many different parts of the bible.

As for being certain? Yes, without any doubt. In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." And “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13)

If every believer can be smug in knowledge that their belief will save them, then what is it that God is supposed to be judging as being the qualifier for your entry to heaven?

If Jesus were to meet me at the gate of Heaven, and asked me “why should I let you into my heaven?” I would say “I am ‘believing in Him and not trusting my works, and my sins covered by the blood Jesus shed on the cross for me.”

On judgment day, if every sin I have ever committed is shown to me then my penalty will be death and hell. But then, the day I ‘believed in Him’ and was sealed by the Holy Spirit forever will also flash past and immediately ‘PAID IN FULL’ will be stamped on my sin-debt. For ALL sins, past, present and future.

Then, once eternity is sorted, there comes a judgement of how I chose to live as a believer. That is when I may hang my head in shame because I know I don’t give enough of my time, energy and resources. Not to mention making the effort to follow Christ’s example as I should. I still have to take up the daily battle against my “self”, the “sin-nature”. The part of me that is tempted to retaliate with road rage when people cut me up, you know the sort of thing.

I know the bible shows many stories of saved people who God punished for their waywardness, which acts as a warning to those who believe. We really don’t get away with whatever we like; quite the opposite. Hebrews 2 says “For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?”

And Luke 12 states: “From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more”.

headinhands Sun 09-Nov-14 12:07:44
If you break the law, you deserve the punishment. Only in this case there is a wonderful free gift available if you will accept it. And that's the difference.?? You're contradicting yourself.

No, I can deserve to get a speeding fine and points on my licence, but get offered a talking-to instead!

I had the opportunity many years ago to accompany road traffic police where they set up speed traps and decide who to punish or allow off the hook. People were thankful to get away with it even though they knew they deserved the book thrown at them. It's just the same, only it doesn't involve God so you probably find that more acceptable.

There is no contradiction made by saying I deserve punishment but that I also accept God’s free gift of eternal life to me.

None of us can escape, we're all guilty ??except we can get away with it if we believe in Jesus, that's what you're advocating

No, I’ve clearly shown that the bible says God brings judgment and disciplines His children. Nobody “gets away” with anything. "ALL unrighteousness is SIN"' (1 John 5.17). Proverbs 11:21 says “Be sure of this, the wicked will not go unpunished”

GerundTheBehemoth Sun 09-Nov-14 12:26:56
Surely it would take a special kind of sociopath to enjoy an eternity in heaven anyway, knowing that others are being hideously tortured for that same eternity? Anyone with even a shred of empathy would quickly find that knowledge intolerable.

Wherever do you get that notion from? It grieves God’s heart that people don’t choose Him. Remember we are told “He wants all men to be saved”. Ezekiel 33:11 “As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live”.

BigDorrit Sun 09-Nov-14 12:39:43
The other thing that always gets me is that the first person to "sin" in the bible is Yahweh himself. He tells the Adam and Eve characters that they will die if they eat from the tree, which is a lie.

Adam and Eve aren’t alive today are they? Had they not sinned, they would have stayed in the Garden of Eden forever. But they aren’t here with us today because their bodies began to decay and they …..died. Just as God said. No lies there, only truth and plenty of fair warnings.

BackOnlyBriefly Sun 09-Nov-14 13:00:02
I can't remember which religious book I read it in now. It may have been a mormon one, but it could have been the bible. It said you would be able to see and hear the suffering of those who didn't get to go to heaven.
No, not the bible. God takes no pleasure in the destruction of those He loves. That’s why He gives so many warnings and chances. Lots of opportunity for people to decide they will chose eternal life instead, which is what God wants for all men. But the choice is theirs.

headinhands Sun 09-Nov-14 13:19:19
Do you actually think I deserve to suffer for eternity?
The bible says the wages of SIN is DEATH. But the free gift of God is eternal life. So if you’ve sinned, then yes, your wages are death.

Do actually think a thief deserves to be crucified?
Personally I don’t. But read carefully and you will see the bible didn’t say he deserved it; the account just describes what happened and the fact that the thief said that about himself, because he acknowledge he was a thief but that Jesus, by contrast, was blameless.

I don't deserve eternal punishment, no one does.

The wages of sin is death. We all deserve it if we’ve all sinned, which we all have.

Punishment yes, but eternal is barbaric and in no way logical.

Ok, so you say you deserve punishment. I wonder what punishment you think you deserve for your lies? For your blasphemy? For your theft? For your anger? For your hatred? For your adultery? The 10 commandments are only 10, but are quite damning. None of us have kept them all, so none of us escape God's judgement.

Now, the point is you can’t chose what level of punishment you’ll get, because you are not the rule-maker. God is. His rules, not ours.

It’s like someone saying “I know I will go to Cambridge University” so I will sell up my house and buy a house In Cambridge before even applying for the course. Then when that person is questioned, says “I had a few B’s and mostly A grades, and THINK I’m good enough for Cambridge, besides, they will love me when they interview me.” Only to find they don’t get in. It’s Cambridge University that sets the grade and decides who gets in, not the applicant. And so it is with heaven. God has made it clear, everyone decides where they spend eternity.

This thing about knowing about god still isn't making any sense. If everyone has the knowledge built in then everyone who denies god is lying on purpose right?

The pope is lying (he doesn't follow your religion), 100s of bishops, up to a billion Christians who don't share your exact belief are lying. All the Muslims are. Every single one of them on the planet. Along with every Hindu, Buddhist, Jew and Atheist.

And their doing it knowing full well that they are giving up a perfect eternal life. Why would they do that?

Also as I've said before it makes the spreading of the gospel redundant. Why even have bibles if everyone already has this knowledge.

And if they don't have it without being told then we're back where we started with some people not getting the same opportunity to choose god.

This isn't an important point, but apparently St. Thomas Aquinas said this:

Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.

But not to worry though because it won't make you unhappy.

But in the future state it will be impossible for them [the damned] to be taken away from their unhappiness: and consequently it will not be possible to pity their sufferings according to right reason. Therefore the blessed in glory will have no pity on the damned

I expect there will be people saying he didn't mean that, but I just wanted to sort out where the idea came from. Not that I read it in the Summa Theologica originally.

BigDorrit Sun 09-Nov-14 22:42:01
Adam and Eve aren’t alive today are they?

Ha! I've heard this one before. So your god is only guilty of sophistry?

No trickery - you tell me, did they die or not?

BackOnlyBriefly Sun 09-Nov-14 22:43:36
This thing about knowing about god still isn't making any sense. If everyone has the knowledge built in then everyone who denies god is lying on purpose right?

Right.

The pope is lying (he doesn't follow your religion), 100s of bishops, up to a billion Christians who don't share your exact belief are lying. All the Muslims are. Every single one of them on the planet. Along with every Hindu, Buddhist, Jew and Atheist.

It's not about my beliefs, it's about what the bible tells us God says. Anyone, of any background, who goes against God's word is clearly not following it.

And their doing it knowing full well that they are giving up a perfect eternal life. Why would they do that?

Jeremiah 17:9 says "The heart of man is deceitful above all things; And is desperately wicked." Also, as I explained before, Romans 1 tells us "or even though they knew God, they did not honour Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

They would have begun to shut the door on God, and harden. Perhaps inch by inch, over time. But none of us are static when it comes to our relationship with God; we are either moving towards Him or away. The choice is ours.

Also as I've said before it makes the spreading of the gospel redundant. Why even have bibles if everyone already has this knowledge.

Because God reveals Himself further when someone is open to Him and seeks Him. You think He can't see an open heart that He loves, and send a missionary into that town or jungle? It happens all the time and I dare say we won't even know the half of it in this life! Remember the bible is also an instruction manual as well as a tool for learning about God in more depth.

And if they don't have it without being told then we're back where we started with some people not getting the same opportunity to choose god.
As I explained before, it is God's desire that all men should be saved, and he takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. He takes pleasure in a lost sheep being found.

St. Thomas Aquinas can say what he likes, but it doesn't mean it's a reflection of God's mind, it's clearly a reflection of Thomas'.

the bible is also an instruction manual as well as a tool for learning about God in more depth.

So you do need the bible. So anyone who just never had the chance to read one was at a disadvantage and despite god sending out a few missionaries here and there whole generations never got to see it. Some of them were born before most of it even existed.

I know you're not going to say "oh no! you're right. I see it now" but I know and you know and anyone reading this knows.

Anyone else got a god they'd like to try and prove?

so you do need a bible

Back, stop and think about this for a minute. How do you think people followed God before anything was penned in the bible? Yes we do use the book, but God is not confined to it, He never was and never will be.

Nothing will stop God from getting the good news to even the most remote parts of the world, "to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8). And as if to prove it, God even gave John a glimpse of heaven, where he saw people "from every tribe and language and people from every nation" (Revelation 5:9).

The bottom line: God is obviously able to reveal the truth about himself to anyone, anywhere. But he often uses us to do it. That's why Jesus' last words to us were instructions to tell everyone, everywhere, the good news of God's love (Matthew 28:19-20).

We can be assured that God, who is loving and just, is still in control. God is sovereign, and he will always do what is right.

Although many people do not know the full revelation of the gospel, none of us are totally ignorant of him. 'For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.' The created universe speaks so clearly of a Creator that it took rebellious humans thousands of years to come up with a half-decent explanation of how things might have arisen without any intelligent designer, in the neo-Darwinian synthesis. The psalmist exclaims that 'the heavens declare the glory of God' and we really have to be quite blinded by naturalist philosophy before we can take a walk in the country or gaze at the night sky and not see something of God's creative flair reflected there.

Then there is the witness of our consciences. Though defective since the fall, they still function and give us a sense of a moral order, a morality that we generally know to be correct, even though we fail to live up to it. Paul, in his treatment of God's righteous judgment, tells us that 'Gentiles, who do not have the law...show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness'.

The Bible gives an example of a man who was in a situation not unlike many today. His name was Cornelius. He was a very religious man who was constantly praying to God. He had not heard of Jesus Christ, but he was honestly asking God to reveal Himself to him.

God answered the prayer of Cornelius, and sent the apostle Peter to him to give him the full story of Jesus. When Peter preached to him, Cornelius put his trust in Christ as his Savior. This example demonstrates that anyone who is sincerely desiring to know God will hear about Jesus.

2. His attributes, power and nature, are all evident externally, being understood through what is made, so they are without excuse.

How were they supposed to know the God of scripture? Or are you saying that your god and the rainbow serpent are one and the same, and it doesn't matter really which set of rules you follow as long as you believe in a deity?

Why would God say to one set of people 'here's a detailed if ambiguous handbook' and to others 'look at the mountains and guess'?

God answered the prayer of Cornelius, and sent the apostle Peter to him to give him the full story of Jesus. When Peter preached to him, Cornelius put his trust in Christ as his Savior. This example demonstrates that anyone who is sincerely desiring to know God will hear about Jesus.

Well, no, it demonstrates that someone who lives within a day's walk of someone who knew about Jesus. And of course it doesn't show anything, it's a story that isn't independently verified.

Why didn't God send anyone to parts of the world that weren't discovered by the western world for another millennium or so?

God's creative flair reflected there.

His creative flair is also pretty evident in the not so nice things, right, like malaria and typhus?