Is faith/belief an opinion?

[clarabellabunting]

Just that, really.

I was recently having a really interesting discussion with a friend of mine who is a Christian in which he tried to explain to me (a non-believer) about why he was a Christian, believed in God, etc.

I struggled to see his opinion that there was a God as any different than, say, someone's opinion that men and women should have equal rights, or someone's opinion that homosexuality is right/wrong. And I thought it should therefore be subject to the same sort of questioning as any other opinion that someone expresses publicly.

He, however, kept falling back on "that's my faith, though" as if it was in a different category. He also said that nothing anyone could say to him would ever change it, which seemed strange to me because I'm always checking and questioning my 'beliefs' to make sure I'm holding them for the right reason and am not mistaken. I would hate to start out from a position of 'nobody is ever going to change my mind about this'.

What do other believers think? Obviously someone's opinion about the existence of God can be much more personal and important than other opinions they hold. But isn't your decision to believe/not believe essentially the same process as many other decisions you make about what you think about any number of other issues in life?

I think most people of faith have gone through periods of serious contemplation about it. But that would be from the starting point of 'I have been a believer, am I still?" rather than from a completely neutral position "Do I think there is or is not a God, and what evidence can I see on both sides?"

Equally, some atheists think about these things from time to time, but again they have a specific starting point of "I am not a believer, is anything that people have said to me or that I have experienced suggesting that I am wrong in that?" And the answer is generally No, because there is no evidence to encourage them to change their position.

For someone who does believe, there may be a 'crisis of faith' where they think "This doesn't work" or "Even if God exists I hate him" but that doesn't automatically mean they will change their beliefs.

It's far deeper than an 'opinion' - it's emotional and visceral and part of your definition of who and what you are. I can change my opinions if presented with a coherent argument against them. There isn't any academic argument that anyone can make against faith that would have the same effect. That doesn't mean it could absolutely never change, but if it did it would be because of a change deep inside me and not because of what anyone else said or thought or believed.

Appletini, technically it is still an opinion unless you can prove it.

And if you could prove it, you'd be a lot more famous, even amongst your religious community.

Events happening, usually good ones, do not prove an existence of a god. Pray ... don't pray. Things will still happen.

For example, I have a number of job interviews at the end of this week. It'll make not one bit of difference if anyone prays for my success. If I get offered the job, it'll be down to the fact that the interviewers are impressed by me.

Many atheists have arrived at that point having had faith but lost it, so it isn't fair to say that they necessarily have no understanding of what it is to have faith.

Niminy, re your post about mindfulness etc. Being an atheist does not mean that you are also closed off from any kind of self exploration - many use meditation techniques without coming to any revelations about a divine presence.

The difference is that when an atheist meditates they experience a deeper connection with themselves, whereas someone with faith will interpret the same experience as a connection with god. Some may experience a spiritual connection, but not one that has any reference to a personal god. The same process will not necessarily lead to the same result.

"For example, I have a number of job interviews at the end of this week. It'll make not one bit of difference if anyone prays for my success. If I get offered the job, it'll be down to the fact that the interviewers are impressed by me."

But this is to misunderstand what prayer is all about. Prayer isn't primarily about asking God for things. Prayer is primarily about becoming open to God's presence, about spending time with him -- petition (asking for things for yourself) and intercession (praying for others) are a part, but not the major part of prayer. So of course things will happen; what you might learn from prayer is to see begin to see where God is in the pattern, and to begin to ask yourself 'what is it that God wants me to do?', and to see that God is there with you in whatever you are going through.

(Also, how will you know if prayer makes no difference? It's not like you can know what would have happened if nobody had prayed for you, is it?)

Have to go out now so won't be able to check back for a while.

"Well done, Hakluyt, you too have proved my point, that atheists aren't willing to find out what faith means to people of faith, but want to conduct the debate entirely on their own terms."

So are you saying that in order to find out what faith means, I have to pray?

Actually, I think I do know what faith means--insofar as anyone can. I have done a lot of talking and reading in my time.

Amuminscotland has it spot on. We like to think that we base our decisions on the information available to us, but this is not the case. Confirmation bias and rationalization exist in believers and atheists alike.

On the subject of atheists needing to 'try it' I have to agree that is meaningless.

And how many believers here have tried putting saucers of milk out for brownies in hopes they will reward you by doing some chores around the house. Would you advise people to try that before rejecting their existence and before paying for a cleaner?

On the main question 'Is faith/belief an opinion?' it depends on what you mean by faith. In the conversations I have had I've seen it mean many things. Some believers use it to mean 'trust'. As in "I trust my friend". That god is trustworthy is an opinion of sorts I suppose, but if you decide to trust someone you haven't met that's normally called a guess.

It has been used to mean 'my whole religious lifestyle' which is more than an opinion, but still subjective.

Sometimes people claim that faith is instilled by god or the holy spirit. In which case it's not their opinion as such, but the opinion of the power changing their thoughts.

We like to think that we base our decisions on the information available to us

Of course we don't always succeed, but some of us try. I never consciously make a decision based on information I made up.

We all try Back.

I know that sometimes atheists become theists, but it would like to know if any of the committed theists on here have ever tried being atheist to see what it's like.

I don't understand why I am expected to try theism- even to the extent of actually praying in order to understand faith. I would be grateful if someone could explain why this only seems to work one way.

I used to be an atheist, so I know what it's like.

Not the same as an atheist "trying" theism, as seems to be expected.

An atheist tries theism.
A theist tries atheism.
In the end they will still be themselves.

I have no idea what that means, or how it contributes to the discussion but hey ho.

IME plenty of churchgoers don't actually really believe in Christianity. They just like the idea of it, and in particular like some of the trappings, eg nice costumes, nice music, the social side of attending church. And maybe there's some truth in it, not sure. The C of E is quite ok with that approach.
I've also come across people who have simply chosen the religion they like the feel of. Eg they've been brought up a Christian or agnostic and as adults fancy becoming a Buddhist. Actual faith - being convinced that what they believe in is actually the truth - doesn't seem to come into it.

How can an atheist "try" theism?

You can't force belief. I could no more "try theism than I could fly to the moon.

"IME plenty of churchgoers don't actually really believe in Christianity. They just like the idea of it, "

Absolutely. That's what made the national census figures for people with religious faith so wildly misleading.

I was brought up in Christianity (fairly nominally), was thoroughly put off it in my teens by some very committed Christian fundamentalists who were convinced I wasn't a Christian because I didn't believe exactly the same as them, and then rediscovered religion in my mid twenties when I worked out that liberal Christianity did in fact exist after all.

So for a good ten years of my life I didn't count myself as a theist, didn't go to church, didn't pray. Does that count as 'trying' atheism?

I don't think my core beliefs were very different at that stage in my life than they are now, I just didn't label them the same. I'm not sure you can really 'try' not believing something, though you can certainly not do anything about those beliefs.

But I don't think an atheist can try out belief any more than a theist can try out atheism. You can behave differently, and make choices differently. But you either believe in something or you don't, you can't do any more than imagine what it might feel like to be different.

There's different kinds of religion - some are more concerned with what you do, and some focus more on what you believe. For older generations of churchgoers, Christianity was often treated more as something that you do - you go to church, you behave in certain ways, you avoid certain things - and as long as you didn't actually disagree with the theology, that was enough to count as belief. In a way, Judaism is more like that - you do things because you are Jewish, you are Jewish because you do those things, plus it is about identity. There isn't as much focus on disagreeing points of theology, you are pleasing God by what you do/what you don't do.

Nowadays in Christianity, there's a lot more stress on the 'personal relationship with God through Jesus' aspect, and so there's a question of whether 'being a regular churchgoer' is the same as 'being a Christian'. But that's just a question of the current 'flavour' that's in vogue. If people say they want to be counted as Christians (or any other faith) in a survey, then I don't think anyone else gets to say 'No, you're not'

Oh yes, if people want to call themselves Christian that is fine. However if what you were really trying to find out was how many people really think there's a god then asking people if they are Christian could be misleading.

And people use those statistics to support their own beliefs as though every single person who called themselves a Christian would agree with whatever they are claiming.

We all try Back. (to base our decisions on the information available to us)
Sadly I don't think all people do. Having faith in god without evidence that he even exists is considered a virtue by many and is praised in the bible. We are encouraged not to base our decisions on the information available to us.

". If people say they want to be counted as Christians (or any other faith) in a survey, then I don't think anyone else gets to say 'No, you're not'"

Agreed. Unless the survey is intended to be used to determine budgets, social policy, education policy. In which case, then yes I think we do get to say just that.

Well, if surveys are meant to be used for policy decisions, then they need to be worded properly. So, if they want to know about religious schools, for instance, they should ask whether people would prefer religious or not. Personally, I would prefer that there were no state schools connected to religious groupings, so I'd hate to think that my ticking 'Christian' on a box somewhere might be used to suggest that there is X amount of support for religious-based school choice, because that just doesn't follow and people are being very lazy (and/or devious) if they use the figures that way.

Re. Theists "trying" atheism, yes I think many do. They may talk to atheist friends about their views, read books about atheism, consider whether there may not be a God, what a world without a God would be like, etc etc. Many people with faith (not all), may question that faith, either infrequently or frequently.
And there would be nothing wrong with saying the Lord's Prayer as a non- believer, in my opinion. It may still have some spiritual or philosophical or metaphorical resonance , which the individual may find helpful or at least interesting, even if a non-religious one.
The existence of God can mean many different things to different people, to the extent that I'm not sure the binary opposition of theists and non-theists is always entirely helpful. For some Christians, I understand, God is a metaphor, but no less real for that. So saying a prayer is not necessarily either telling the truth or lying - it can work on different levels.
Sorry, may not be explaining myself very well.

its not like you can know what would have happened

Either prayer does or doesn't make a difference. If you look at realty Christianity doesn't make a notable difference to the real terms of life quality, education and access to healthcare win hands down. If prayer worked, well, it would work. How do you know your toaster works. It's not a 'it doesn't look different to you but it does to me'.

So Back, you believe that around 80% of the world population do not base their decisions on the best information available to them? That's a bit misanthropic.