Is faith/belief an opinion?

[clarabellabunting]

Just that, really.

I was recently having a really interesting discussion with a friend of mine who is a Christian in which he tried to explain to me (a non-believer) about why he was a Christian, believed in God, etc.

I struggled to see his opinion that there was a God as any different than, say, someone's opinion that men and women should have equal rights, or someone's opinion that homosexuality is right/wrong. And I thought it should therefore be subject to the same sort of questioning as any other opinion that someone expresses publicly.

He, however, kept falling back on "that's my faith, though" as if it was in a different category. He also said that nothing anyone could say to him would ever change it, which seemed strange to me because I'm always checking and questioning my 'beliefs' to make sure I'm holding them for the right reason and am not mistaken. I would hate to start out from a position of 'nobody is ever going to change my mind about this'.

What do other believers think? Obviously someone's opinion about the existence of God can be much more personal and important than other opinions they hold. But isn't your decision to believe/not believe essentially the same process as many other decisions you make about what you think about any number of other issues in life?

[Hakluyt]

"Theists "trying" atheism, yes I think many do. They may talk to atheist friends about their views, read books about atheism, consider whether there may not be a God, what a world without a God would be like, etc etc. Many people with faith (not all), may question that faith, either infrequently or frequently"

Absolutely- although that is not "trying atheism" really. That is exactly what I do only the other way round, but I have been told on this thread that I am not prepared to try to understand faith, because I won't say prayers.

[fakenamefornow]

I don't think faith is a opinion as such, I think that would be like saying vegetarianism is an opinion, opinions change too freely. Having said that I don't think a persons faith should mean society has to make any adjustments to accommodate it. If you believe in God, that has a price and you should be willing to pay that price and not expect others to bend so that you don't have to.

I don't believe in God, even though I would really like to. I go (or have been) to church regularly I've been on the ALPHA course, twice, I've prayed but a believe in God isn't something isn't something that you can just turn on.

This friend of yours who says nothing could shake his believe, how far does that extend? I mean does he dispute the existence of dinosaurs, for example, because they are not mentioned in the bible?

[Hakluyt]

"I don't believe in God, even though I would really like to"

Can you say why? Not if you don't want to, obviously.......

[BackOnlyBriefly]

DioneTheDiabolist actually you were the one who said "We like to think that we base our decisions on the information available to us, but this is not the case" so you appear to be claiming that i100% of people are irrational. I'm suggesting a smaller number.

I'm simply saying that generally religious people (Abrahamic religions anyway) claim that making decisions on an irrational basis is better and one should strive to do so. It says they should in their instruction manual too.

I imagine that a lot of those who claim to be religious will be only so on a casual basis and won't really act any different to the average atheist.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Yes, we are all irrational in our own ways Back. I recognize and am fine with this. Just as I am fine in the knowledge that we all try to make decisions based on the information available to us.

It is interesting that you are now imagining that a lot of religious people will behave the same as atheists. That makes me .

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Or to put it another way, you are imagining that atheists behave the same way as a lot of religious people. I think that's progress.

[Hakluyt]

In order to be a theist you have to reach the edge of rational thought, then make leap of faith. Atheists don't. They can stay with rational thought.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Hak, do you think atheists are more rational than believers? Do you think that atheist smokers are more rational than theist non smokers?

[Hakluyt]

I think that that in order to be a believer you have to go beyond reason. That's what faith is - believing something that is completely unsupported by evidence.

[Hakluyt]

I have no idea why you are talking about smokers.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Hak do you think that an atheist smoker is more rational than a non smoker who believes?

[Hakluyt]

Rational about what? Atheists can be irrational about other things and theists can be rational about other things. We are, I thought , discussing this particular aspect of life.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Oh I thought we were talking about rational thought. Are we not?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Sorry, I should say "rational thought in theists and atheists".

[Meow75]

Well, Dione, smoking aside as it's irrelevant, I think theists ARE irrational.

We have lots and lots of scientific evidence to, in my opinion, banish all the religious texts to the shelves labelled "Historical Fiction" but religion persists because those in power - certainly in times past - have recognised that it is a useful tool to control the populace.

To continue to conduct life in accordance with one of these texts is tantamount to madness.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I don't think it is irrational. We have data on the impact of smoking on life. Hard data. Yet atheists still sm

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Smoke.

What happens after we die, what happened before the creation of the Universe is unknown. What happens to our bodies when we smoke is known on a scientific, logical, human level.

Yet atheists still smoke. So atheism is not about rationality.

[headinhands]

I think the whole phenomena of doing things that we know can hurt us is risk taking. Smoking/driving/flying all carry known risks but many still do all 3. Technically it's not completely irrational seeing as we will know people who smoked 40 a day and lived to 90, same with the driving although smoking is waaaaaaaay more risky. As for god, I have never seen anyone go to heaven or any such thing. There's no calculated risk assessment to be done because I don't have a pool of some people who I saw Jesus saving and some I didn't iyswim.

[headinhands]

I'm thinking of cognitive dissonance, is that what this is about?

[gingerdodger]

I don't agree that religious people are asked to make irrational decisions,far the contrary. Most big decisions in my life are made after much contemplation and thought. We are asked to make decisions according to consciense, but that requires deep rational thought, weighing up pros and cons but always trying to weigh in Jesus' message of love for one another.

Core faith is different, I don't see it as a decision, I certainly didn't make a decision in that I didn't seek it, it sought me. I have made the decision to follow it and not ignore it I suppose but ignoring it would be like ignoring feeding my children or not eating myself, it would gnaw away at me and always be there. There have been times I ignored it. It still quietly and persistently remained. I don't think that's necessarily irrational as nobody has ever persuaded me that there is concrete proof God doesn't exist, it's just living my life based upon my experience, as we all do.

[fakenamefornow]

"I don't believe in God, even though I would really like to"

Can you say why? Not if you don't want to, obviously.......

Yes. A lot of the reason is very shallow, I like the theatre of church services, especially Easter and Christmas and the community within the church. I also really enjoy the discussions about Christianity, as I said I've been on the ALPHA course (twice!) they know my views, I don't pretend I'm a believer. Now I know I can (and do) take part in all those things without actually having a believe in God but it does make me feel like a bit of a fraud.

Also, Christians or any Abrahamic religion, seem to have real certainty in their lives, they know where we came from and what happens to us after we die, or at least think they do. I don't have good answers to those questions, although science is starting providing better answers. When we die, well I think we just die, we don't exist any more, just like before we were born. How the universe and life came into being, that's much harder for me to answer, although I know what I don't believe and that's that it was created by God.

Coming back to the point people raised about smoking being prove that atheists don't have a monopoly on rational thought. I heard some professor on the radio a few years ago saying that the choice to take up smoking when young actually is a very rational one. It raises the status of a youngster, makes them look cool amongst their peers, they get the pleasure of smoking and any down sides come many many years later and they can quit before then. Anyway, I don't think choosing to take up smoking is a good determiner as to a persons rational thinking, or lack of it.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

What happens after we die, what happened before the creation of the Universe is unknown

The last part we don't know. I don't know that we've established that the universe had a beginning and a moment of 'creation'.

We know what happens when we die though. We stop moving and fall to bits. Just like animals, trees and old toasters. There is a fanciful story about something else, but no one has offered a reason to suppose it has any basis in reality. Anyone here seriously believe that there's a heaven for toasters and VCRs?

The smoking thing is a red herring. It might be a good comparison if people who smoked all had faith that it was harmless, but most will admit that it is risky and are simply gambling. Just like people who ski or drive cars. It's a risk assessment weighing reward against the likely outcome.

[headinhands]

It sought me, I have made the decision to follow it

Why do you suppose 'it' seems largely uninterested in certain countries like Afghanistan where almost everyone is Muslim? Why is it largely bound by geography? It doesn't often chose people whose parents/culture is of a different religion.

[headinhands]

"No one has ever persuaded me that there is concrete evidence that god doesn't exist"

Oh, so until you have concrete proof of things not existing you live as if it does exist? So you regularly sacrifice to Zeus and Apollo etc? Could you show me your concrete evidence that Vishnu doesn't exist?