Is faith/belief an opinion?

[clarabellabunting]

Just that, really.

I was recently having a really interesting discussion with a friend of mine who is a Christian in which he tried to explain to me (a non-believer) about why he was a Christian, believed in God, etc.

I struggled to see his opinion that there was a God as any different than, say, someone's opinion that men and women should have equal rights, or someone's opinion that homosexuality is right/wrong. And I thought it should therefore be subject to the same sort of questioning as any other opinion that someone expresses publicly.

He, however, kept falling back on "that's my faith, though" as if it was in a different category. He also said that nothing anyone could say to him would ever change it, which seemed strange to me because I'm always checking and questioning my 'beliefs' to make sure I'm holding them for the right reason and am not mistaken. I would hate to start out from a position of 'nobody is ever going to change my mind about this'.

What do other believers think? Obviously someone's opinion about the existence of God can be much more personal and important than other opinions they hold. But isn't your decision to believe/not believe essentially the same process as many other decisions you make about what you think about any number of other issues in life?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

You have been here for a while Head, have you made any headway in understanding your previous self?

[Hakluyt]

You just have to keep your mind firmly closed to any sort of evidence based thinking. Once you start trying to reconcile the inconsistencies it starts being impossible. If you just say to yourself- I don't understand, but one day the whole an will be revealed to me and it will all make sense- there's no problem making room for it.

[headinhands]

How did you get it all to fit

It would be easy for me to assume it's about age seeing how my faith dropped away with the increasing years but I know there are many whose faith remains intact as they get older. I honestly don't know how I did it, I hope hanging around here will help me make sense of it.

[Hakluyt]

Easy. Believers just don't give any headspace to the contrary evidence.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

How did you get it all to fit when you were a believer Head?

[headinhands]

Thanks ginger. Let me just clarify something though. It's no that I don't understand what you're staying, it's that I don't see how they fit in with the biblical god. Having faith in a god that is nebulous, passive and indifferent doesn't cause problems because there's no clash with reality or with a text but when we start to say 'I believe in god A and he is like this and does this and that is his message' then there's problems because there's a world of evidence that runs counter to it. So that's the nub of he issue here, how you get it to all fit even when logically it doesn't connect together.

[capsium]

I don't know of another single word that has exactly the same meaning as Faith...

[capsium]

An opinion, to me, suggests something singular. Faith is something more, world view comes close but Faith encompasses more than just a view of this world.

Ethos and paradigm come closer in meaning to Faith, I think. However these words are pretty secular and can include a group of beliefs which can be changed by evidence, whereas Faith involves belief in things which are not / have not been seen, that is it is a Spiritual belief.

[gingerdodger]

I feel that the arguments on here have become circular for me. I have explained my views, the fact that I don't have the answers and tried to give my perspective on the initial question.

I completely understand that this is a viewpoint that others will not subscribe to but I feel that the conversation is no longer constructive for me and whilst I thank you for the opportunity to describe my view I do not feel the need to justify my faith, only to explain my views, which I feel I have done to the best of my ability so I am not sure it is helpful to continue with this discussion as I will just end up repeating myself which does not promote a good discussion but might just lead to entrenched views rather than a good exchange.

Thanks for the opportunity to think through my thoughts, always helpful for me.

[Lookingforfocus]

Yes all those bloodthirsty murdering Christians, I see them rampaging through the streets daily following their insane child murdering God. Well that's a different version, it used to be that we were boring.

[headinhands]

beyond my understanding

and yet you believe you know which god, out of the 4'000 gods humans have ever believed in, happens to be the real one,

[headinhands]

according to that principle

a principle your god doesn't have!

[headinhands]

there are many things beyond my understanding.

but don't you see you're putting yourself on the wrong side of the equation here. It's not me who is saying I understand, it's you, you're saying you understand that it must be part of god's plan, an understanding that I don't have.

Imagine a child is found murdered. Imagine your spouse tells you that the killer told them that they were going to kill that child. Imagine they told you that they didn't intervene/call the police because they didn't want to mess about with the killer's free will. You accept that?

Why does god hold us to greater morals than himself? If I could stop a child killer I would. If I didn't because I didn't want to harm their free will or whatever that would not make me a good person. People would think I was un well.

[deepbluetr]

"And that would place you one big step above your god..."

Well said.

[gingerdodger]

I am sorry but I do not agree. I do agree that it is extremely difficult to understand why and how some things happen. I cannot answer that, but then I accept, as a human there are many things beyond my understanding. No doubt you will see this as a cop out. I see it more as my human inability to understand all of God's creation. I can only do my bit within it. Hopefully as well as I can do.

[gingerdodger]

So if one of those people you feel indifferent about was about to come to harm that you could prevent. Say you were told of a death threat against them and you were able to tell the police and prevent it wouldn't you do it? Daft example I know but if you say 'yes of course I would take steps to prevent a person I have never really given much though to coming to harm' then I would view that as an act of neighbourly love, you may just see it as what a decent human being would do, and that's kind of the point. Sometimes neighbourly love can be truly heroic and brave, other times it may be just a small thing but still an act of kindness and compassion. Sometimes it may be at a huge cost to you, other times not so. Still kindness and compassion and no longer indifference.

My faith asks me to try (and I mean try) to live my life according to that principle

[deepbluetr]

"Now to me this sounds horrible. Unnoticed, forgotten somehow, not even registering on the radar. This is certainly a lack of love.
" not at all- there are many politicians, footbal players, celebrities I feel indifferernt towards- should I love them?

Save your forgiveness for someone who cares to be forgiven. I am not a sinner.

[capsium]

There are plenty of things and people I don't love or even feel indifferent about- but hate doesn't come into it.

Now to me this sounds horrible. Unnoticed, forgotten somehow, not even registering on the radar. This is certainly a lack of love.

Is everything good or evil?

Yes, I believe it is ultimately. It may not be intentional for people to act with an absence of love though. They can be forgiven. I do believe it matters, though.

What a tiresome world christians must live in.

Quite the opposite. I have never felt so alive as when I decided to pursue my Christian Faith further.

[gingerdodger]

Thank you lookingforfocus you expressed what I meant about how indifference can lead to evil and I do not think you are ineloquent at all (I on the other hand talk meaningless twaddle ). I paraphrase the saying 'all that it takes for bad people to succeed is for good people to do nothing'. Obviously life is not usually as black and white as that, few people (any?) are wholly good or wholly bad.

I think your second paragraph sums up in a nutshell why people of faith view it as different to an opinion.

Christians do not live in a tiresome world, they live in the same complex, often messy but also often beautiful world as everyone else. My previous post was not in any way trying to say everything is good or evil, if only life was that simple, but rather to explain how love, in the type of neighbourly love described above, brings compassion and kindness, absence of such can allow us to cause or allow 'evil' things to happen because we are not motivated by neighbourly love to stop it.

I wanted to point out that it is not only people of faith or Christians who behave in these ways (or even that they always manage to do so) as to suggest otherwise would be wholly wrong. I do believe God values all these acts of love, I appreciate that if you do not believe that God exists that part of it is meaningless to you.

[Lookingforfocus]

I was atheist and didn't become Christian because I suddenly had a change of opinion. I encountered what I never expected to encounter and did not believe existed. That encounter continues and it would now be untrue for me to say otherwise.

[Lookingforfocus]

I am not as eloquent and may not express myself as well as many people on this thread. Ginger dodger thank you for describing what I am talking about when I talk about love. That care and concern for people we interact with and encounter is the love I mean. I said nothing about hate and I am not talking about seeing the world in black and white but in fact indifference can move us away from caring about others and loving our neighbour as ourself. A build up of a multitude of small acts of indifference can ultimately lead to an evil result.
My faith is not an opinion but a lived experience and encounter with a love that is alive.

[deepbluetr]

It's not just semantics, it's meaningless twaddle. Lookingfor actually said if "An absence of love produces evil."

Ginnger you are now suggesting she meant "behaving with hate" or even indifference "causes evil".

Is everything good or evil? What a tiresome world christians must live in.

There are plenty of things and people I don't love or even feel indifferent about- but hate doesn't come into it.

I don't really care if a mythical god "values my acts " or not.