Is faith/belief an opinion?

[clarabellabunting]

Just that, really.

I was recently having a really interesting discussion with a friend of mine who is a Christian in which he tried to explain to me (a non-believer) about why he was a Christian, believed in God, etc.

I struggled to see his opinion that there was a God as any different than, say, someone's opinion that men and women should have equal rights, or someone's opinion that homosexuality is right/wrong. And I thought it should therefore be subject to the same sort of questioning as any other opinion that someone expresses publicly.

He, however, kept falling back on "that's my faith, though" as if it was in a different category. He also said that nothing anyone could say to him would ever change it, which seemed strange to me because I'm always checking and questioning my 'beliefs' to make sure I'm holding them for the right reason and am not mistaken. I would hate to start out from a position of 'nobody is ever going to change my mind about this'.

What do other believers think? Obviously someone's opinion about the existence of God can be much more personal and important than other opinions they hold. But isn't your decision to believe/not believe essentially the same process as many other decisions you make about what you think about any number of other issues in life?

[FiveExclamations]

Just to chime in to the earlier discussion about trying "theism" my DD wanted to go to church so we went to family services once a month for about three years and it was an interesting experience. The service was followed by an explanation of the day's text (the point wasn't always obvious) which led to a lot of thinking about all sorts of things and some adjustments to my moral philosophy, but my atheism wasn't shaken.

I told everyone who asked that I was an atheist and why I was there and got on with everyone very well. The Vicar was very concerned that I shouldn't feel obliged to join in, but since the regulars knew where I stood I didn't see the harm and there was something about the repetitions that was very soothing, like saying ohm when you meditate. I do mildly miss going but DD's interest waned.

As to whether faith is an opinion, no idea, it baffles me. Why does the Vicar think a man who started talking weird in a church was talking in tongues while I think they should have got him to a hospital?

Has anyone studied where faith comes from?

[niminypiminy]

I see things have moved on, but I wanted to come back on a couple of things.

Regarding the study investigating the effectiveness of intercessory prayer that BigDorrit linked to, that's an interesting study but there are problems with it.

1. As the press release admits, it was impossible for those running the experiment to exclude family and friends of the subjects from praying, or to stop people praying for themselves. It is therefore impossible to know whether those who weren't prayed for were in fact prayed for (and perhaps more than those who were prayed for). That doesn't seem to me to be a very robust experiment.
   
2. The outcomes were measured only immediately after the experiment had finished: but what were the longer term outcomes?
   
3. The outcomes were measured very narrowly in terms of whether subjects suffered particular physical complications, but there may well have been other outcomes that were not measured by the study -- such as whether those who were prayed for were more content or had a better quality of life
   
4. The organisers of the experiment narrowly defined what they meant by intercessory prayer and the effects it might have, but there are other theologies of intercessory prayer that do not see physical healing as the main aim of intercession
   
5. One interesting study does not in itself mean that a robust conclusion can be drawn: studies of this sort have to be confirmed by others which repeat the conditions of this one, and test the hypothesis under other conditions, in order to be recognised as yielding good results.
   
   But to attempt to test the efficacy of prayer in this way is ultimately to misunderstand what prayer is about. For Christians (and this is the only group of people of faith I can really talk about, as I just don't know enough about other faiths to speak about what prayer means for them, and I don't want to mimic the arrogance of those who speak in sweeping generalisations about 'the abrahamic religions') God isn't like a genie who will do as you wish, nor is he a capricious deity along the lines of Zeus who has to be propitiated in order to keep his favour.
   
   Prayer isn't like putting money in a slot machine in order to get something out. God acts in response to prayer -- but in his own way, in his own time, and we are not given to know what that is. I pray every day for people I have never met, and I will never know what happens to them. That doesn't mean that my prayer is useless; simply that I don't know what use it is. One of the things that one gradually learns as a result of praying is that we simply do not control the cosmos.
   
   And, in general, God eschews action at a distance. He accomplishes his purpose through us. In the experiment above, it may be that what the prayers accomplished was tenderness and care by the medical staff involved, or visits from friends, or messages of love and hope; it may be that what the prayers accomplished was a healing somewhere else; it may be that what they accomplished was an advance in medical research. When we pray we offer our intentions and our thoughts, our care and love to God to use as he wills, and when you give something you can't control what the person you have given it to does with it. It's the same with prayer: in prayer you give up your prayers to God, for him to use as he wills not as you will.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

niminypiminy, the experiment didn't need to look for subtle changes because Jesus (we're told) healed people who were dead and rotting and they leapt up cured. He gave the blind new eyes and had people who hadn't walked in years dancing around in joy. He never once stood over a corpse and said "look.. no wait.. he'll move in a minute... give it time.." or "keep exercising those legs and if you can't stand in six months pray to me again"

Part of the point was that some religious people were claiming there are unmistakable results from prayer. So we say "okay try it while we're looking" and it didn't produce the results they claimed.

If you want to say it doesn't work like that and prayer doesn't help if you are sick that's fine and in that case the experiment doesn't prove you wrong, but many of your fellow Christians were claiming something quite different and it proves them wrong.

[IsItMeOr]

This is a very interesting conversation to me (bought up CofE, wanted to believe, but had a revelatory moment when I finally accepted my atheism), but I don't have a lot of time today to contribute properly.

On the smoking issue though, apparently 42% of cigarettes are smoked by people with mental health problems. If anybody asked what their religious views were, I'm not aware that it's been published, but I think it's a nice illustration of potential confounding factors.

[headinhands]

The whole smoking/Christianity discussion reminds me of a question a pack-a-day Christian once asked an elder. "Will I still go to heaven if I smoke?" "Yes. You'll just get there quicker".

On that note it's probably more rational for a christian to smoke than a non-Christian!

[gingerdodger]

headinhands on the points you are asking me about.

Firstly on the Christian aspects and why this is centred on certain communities and does not 'seek' people of other faiths such as Muslims. It is my belief that their faith has lead them on a different path to God. I don't believe my way is the 'right' way or the only way. I can only say it feels the right way for me.

On the issue of not my not following the other religions you cite, I was explaining that although my faith may appear irrational to others my decision to practise my faith is not based on irrational thought but rather based upon my personal experience and conviction. As nobody has shown me concrete proof God doesn't exist then I am not going against an incontrovertible truth. I don't follow the religions you cite as I have no experience or conviction concerning them although I accept that nobody has shown me incontrovertible proof that they don't exist either.

[headinhands]

"I don't follow the religions you cite because I have no experience"

And that's what it comes down to doesn't it rather than any supernatural force. If all these religions new and old lead to god why doesn't he tell you all so that there's no intolerance? Why would he set you up against each other? Seems either poorly thought through or even cruel. Why did god in the OT get so stroppy about other gods, the first 4 commandments are to do with how cross he gets about other religions/his ego.

[Hakluyt]

But surely you don't need experience if God can speak directly to your consciousness? Can't he just give you the experience you need?

[headinhands]

I accept that nobody has shown me incontrovertible proof that they don't exist either.

And that's why your adherence to god a over god b or god c is irrational. Study and tests and history show time and again how poor personal experience is for determining facts. You can take a room of people and find diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive beliefs and opinions all garnered from experience.

[gingerdodger]

Personally I don't view 'God's' as set up against each other. Other people of faith are following God in the way their conscience and experience directs them. In terms of false God's there are plenty of those about, however I view these as worship of meaningless usually material things, striving always to have the most money, biggest car sort of thing, not people following their faith. I think God is a lot more complex than any of us can understand but we can still follow our faith in simple, meaningful ways without having to comprehend the whole as I believe that would blow our minds.

And yes part of my experience is based what I view to be direct interaction with God.

You may view personal experience as poor evidence for facts, I agree, taken in isolation it can be, however it can also be powerful and meaningful and is often what we use in life to verify what others teach to us. I have to use my personal experience as the basis for my relationship with God just as I use my personal experience of others to decide how I feel about them and don't just accept views of others.

I think that is important actually, my faith is about a relationship with God. It is not about testing facts or evidence in the way that I might for historical or scientific information as it is based upon a relationship first and foremost.

These are just my views and perspective. I am sure there are those of faith and no faith with others but there is room for all of us in this world if we strive to live peaceably together.

[headinhands]

I don't view god's as set up against each other

You might not but there are plenty who take their religious text as evidence of their god being against god b and god c or behaviour xyz. You're 'my faith is all about acceptance' is honourable but it's not in line with the bible is it? Your morals are superior to the god in the bible, particularly the OT.

[headinhands]

Following god in the way their conscience and experience directs them

So god/holy spirit is hands off and it's down to us to muddle through. Why does they NT describe a Holy Spirit that communicates with humans though? Again it's all well and good if god's followers only differ on minor stuff but they kill each other a lot and make others feel inferior.

[Lookingforfocus]

I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread at is late and I am lazy but what I would say is that I believe because I am in a relationship of love. This love in which I am relating to someone was not discovered by intellectual reading although some have been converted that way, but now I believe my favourite reading matter is related to faith in some way.

The Bible was also dry as a bone and dead as well as incomprehensible but with faith it is literally alive. I became a Catholic and my extended family are all still unbelievers but it makes no difference to me at all.

[headinhands]

if you say there is no god

I wouldn't say that. I would say that at this point in time I'm unconvinced by the evidence of any of the religions I've encountered.

[headinhands]

you're trusting in Him and relying on Him

In what way is your life any different to mine. I assume/hope you take your kids to the dr when they're ill. And that you pay your bills, wear a seat belt. Look before crossing the road. I'm guessing you rely on the same things as me for the stuff that matters.

Have you ever seen someone go to heaven?

[headinhands]

with faith it is literally alive

No why wouldn't a wise god make it comprehensible to everyone even without faith, or give everyone faith so they where wow-ed when reading it. Why set up a system where your ability to have that type of faith is largely geographical i.e. a Muslim in Afghanistan isn't likely to read the bible or have that faith in the Christian god.

[Hakluyt]

"
"If you have faith that your doctor is a qualified GP then you're trusting him or her and relying upon them for diagnosis, referral and treatment."

But i can check that my doctor is qualified. I can look at her track record. I can ask for more reasons for her diagnosis,and evidence of the effectiveness of her suggested treatment. And if she proved to be wrong or ineffective, I wouldn't go on trusting her and following her treatment because it's part of some bigger plan for my good that I don't yet understand but which will be revealed to me at some unspecified time in the future..........

[headinhands]

not trusting in yourself

If trusting your own decision making is so lousy then how come god set up a system where he expected you to find him through the use of your own decision making. He thought it was good enough then? If we can't be trusted to make good decisions why did he have to rely on it for us to be saved? Why not carry on using that ability? How come there is no clear distinction between Christian and non-Christian. For example, non-Christians are able to lead positive/loving lives without any divine help? How fantastic is this help if human reasoning is just as good?

[gingerdodger]

There is always going to be interpretation of the bible, just as there is of any text, religious or otherwise, especially when that text is in itself a collection of text with different authors, all of which have been translated into many languages. I am comfortable with my faith and the perspective this gives me with scripture, my faith is based as I've said above on my personal relationship with God.


In following God according to consciense and personal experience these are, of course, not divorced from God, God gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit to interact with us, I have many experiences where I believe I have had personal interaction with God through the Holy Spirit. I don't wish to go into these on a public forum but suffice it to say my conscience and experience is influenced by my relationship with God and is certainly not hands off.

I am not always sure where dissecting sections of a person's answer starts to become meaningless and drifts from the initial question. I think those with faith see it not as an opinion but as an underlying conviction by which they try to live their life based upon a relationship with God, those without faith may view it more akin to an opinion like any other. To be honest it does not bother me if others see it as an opinion, deluded or otherwise, this does not affect my faith and, I would hope, not my practise of it. This may sound a bit smug, it is not intended to be, but just to say that I understand that this may be difficult for others to comprehend, sometimes I do myself, but my faith remains, it can waver and falter but still it persists, and that is, to me, probably the essence and mystery of faith.

[headinhands]

Influenced by my relationship with god

See, it seems like you're contradicting yourself, you acknowledge that the bible is open to individual interpretation, but you also maintain you have a two way relationship with god which you would expect to supersede any context difficulties because apparently the author is right there with you and can take time to be sure you totally get what he was saying.

Think about the issue of women bishops for example, a relatively minor scuffle on the scale of things, but one where, even then, god is unable to communicate a clear yay or nay via this relationship, and these are big names in the CofE, we're talking full on sleeping/eating/drinking clergy whose life is dedicated to listening and talking to god. To some he says 'no I don't want female bishops' to the others he says 'yes'.

And that's not wen starting on the religious wars throughout history. Why not say 'hey everyone, you're all worshipping me so chillax'. Why just sit there watching people kill each other over a simple case of misidentification?

[gingerdodger]

Not quite sure how I am being contradictory to say that I am comfortable with my perspective which is based around my faith and my personal relationship with God. Perspective is just that. It is our view on something based upon experience, interpretation, relationships and life in general. I don't claim to be right, just giving my view and how faith works for me. I am not here to justify my faith or anyone else's. I have no need to.

It would be a dull old world if we all had the same perspective, probably easier but we wouldn't grow very much.

[headinhands]

it would be a dull world

That'd be great if religious misunderstanding only led to interesting debate but we're talking about people discriminating and hurting and killing. I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy witnessing religious fuelled violence day in day out. If, as you say, all religions lead to god why does he allow them to believe they are different?

[sunnyspot]

I haven t read the whole thread, and I don t often get the time to post, but I just wanted to say to gingerdodger what a great way you have of expressing faith. That exactly describes my faith. I agree that it is almost impossible to describe to someone who doesn t feel it.

[gingerdodger]

head I despair as much as you do at violence and discrimination. I believe anyone doing so in God's name is missing God's fundamental message of love. I daresay that sometimes things are supposedly done in God's name where the motivation is not religion but power. I don't claim religious organisations are perfect either, they are run by humans and we are flawed. This doesn't diminish my faith though. It does seriously make me wonder where some humans are coming from.

I guess you are right though God does allow us to believe we are all different, in the main this just contributes to the richness of life, sadly we humans sometimes allow ourselves to behave in deplorable ways.

Thank you sunnyspot that's lovely. I was beginning to feel like a lone voice here.