Where are all the reasonable Muslims?

[BananaChips]

So recently there has been the mass kidnapping (and forced conversion) of hundreds of school girls in Nigeria, and now today in the news a woman in Sudan is condemned to death because she refuses to renounce her faith for Islam.

Numerous political figures across the world and some other-religion figures (Archibishop of Canterbury if I recall) have spoken out against the kidnappings, albeit not in terms of religion.

But I'm sincerely curious as to why there seems to have been no one from the Islamic faith who have spoken out against these two recent atrocities. Is it just that the UK news media have not reported it? Is it that no one has spoken against these tragedies? Would we be wrong to say that these actions are putting Islam in a bad light? These actions are being carried out with distinct emphasis on religious grounds.

I am not trying to stir up any anti-religious feelings, I just want to understand why these acts have not been roundly denounced by members of their own faith. (Please point me towards it, if I've missed any in the news...)

It saddens me when I see intelligent people succumbing to this sort of bigotry and prejudice. The fact that this question is even being entertained and is not thrown out immediately as completely illogical, irrational and racist is testament to how acceptable bigotry and hatred towards muslims has become to some people. The interesting thing is in your insistence in blaming all 1.5 billion muslims for the actions of a few you actually mimic the approach of terrorist groups who blame all Westerners for the foreign policies of Western governments and therefore make them legitimate targets of attack. So actually your thinking like a terrorist, and your request is as irrational as al qaeda expecting all westerners to apologise when a drone destroys a village in Afghanistan/Pakistan killing innocent civilians. Or the US bombs kills innocent bystanders in Yemen whilst extra judicially assassinating suspected terrorists. Or expects demonstrations in Western cities for every innocent Palestinian who has his home bull dozed, land stolen or gets killed by Isreali soldiers using weapons and machinery sold to them by Western governments. This simplistic reasoning that unless people do this or that action that you want that means they condone barbaric crimes that they have nothing to do with is rooted in ignorance, hatred and prejudice. Plenty of posters have already made it clear that muslim leaders and countries have condemned those atrocities but once again that’s not what this is about and instead these sorts of threads are used as a cover to demonise muslims with the same faces cropping up time and again and the equally common appearance of first time posters popping up to stick the knife in.

Let me ask you something OP (though I doubt you will come back to this thread now you have started the fire) and others who think like them. There are christians in the world who not only accuse young children (we are talking about children as young as toddlers) of being witches but actually murder them. Where are your requests for condemnation from the Christian community? I have never heard a priest condemn it but you know what it wouldnt even cross my mind to demand that because the fact that it is not a practice universally carried out by christians is sign enough for me that it is not condoned. In Central African Republic a genocide has been perpetrated against muslims by christian militia men with reports that children have been deliberately shot in the head and chest. www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african-republic-christian-militias-revenge The UN warns that 19000 muslims are at risk of being slaughtered by christians in that country. Where are your requests for condemnation from all christians for these murders? Would people consider the question where are all the reasonable christians? a rational question to ask in the light of these two atrocities?

Similarly female infanticide has been a practice carried out by Hindus (female infanticide is specifically forbidden in the Quran so you do not see this commonly occuring in muslim communities) in India for centuries and sex selective abortions have made this easier with tens of thousands of female fetuses being aborted annually. Between 1980 and 2010, they estimate, four to 12 million girls were aborted because of their sex. Since 2001 - 2011 the rate of sex selective abortions of females increased at a rate of 170%. In the Gujurat pogrom against muslims sources estimate that up to 2,000 Muslims were murdered. There were instances of rape, children being burned alive, and widespread looting and destruction of property. Hardly a blip in the media at the time and I certainly do not recall hearing any major world leaders condemning the action (though again I wouldn’t presume necessarily that it meant they didn’t ). Where are your requests for condemnation from all Hindus for this atrocity? Would people consider the question where are all the reasonable Hindus? a rational question because of this.

In China, a secular county, with the highest reported share of self-described atheists (about 47 percent) we see similar trends of increasing female infanticide with reports that more than 50 million women were estimated to be 'missing' in China because of the institutionalised killing and neglect of girls. Due to the huge disparity in the population of males and females there has been an increase in women being kidnapped and the slave trade of women with some women being repeatedly sold. Since 1990, official Chinese figures, state that 64,000 women - 8,000 a year on average have had this happen to them. The Muslim Uighur population of China has also been oppressed for many years by the athiest government of China. A report in 2008 by the State Department criticizes China’s use of “regulations restricting Muslims’ religious activity, teaching, and places of worship.” According to the report, religious institutions are strictly monitored, children are prohibited from religious education, Imams are regularly vetted to ensure their teachings support Chinese government authority, muslims have been banned from fasting in ramadhan and passports are strictly controlled to prevent Muslims from pilgrimage to Makkah. Where is the request for all athiests to condemn these practices? Would people consider the question 'Where are all the reasonable athiests?' because of this a rational topic of discussion.

You could look at any community, ethnicity, political or religious group in the world and you would find examples of violent acts being committed by some amongst the group however people would never accept or suggest that all the people of that group be tarred with the same brush so why this approach with muslims?

Well put peacful

It is especially alarming to see people exhibit such basic IGNORANCE of Islam and muslims yet make such wild accusations that are incredibly dangerous and are meant to justify persecution of a whole people. Like the assertion that FGM is only carried out by muslims. No it isnt. It is also carried out by protestant christians in Africa as well as many indigenous groups like the Masai Mara. Further to that there are whole swathes of the muslim world where the concept of fgm would be horrifying and as alien as it is to many people in the West. Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia for example which many Islamophobes see as quintessential muslim countries do not practice fgm and in fact condemn the practice. Also how is fgm any different to labiaplasties which are entirely legal to perform in this country both of which comply with this definition of fgm given by the WHO.

'Female genital mutilation (FGM) comprises all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons'

Honour killings are a type of domestic violence and are you seriously suggesting it only happens in the muslim world. Newsflash - 2 women a week die of domestic violence in the UK. Whether its cause your family are angry at you for some infraction or your partner wants to punish you/destroy you for daring to leave them this kind of violence against women is unfortunately seen across the globe but curiously is only blamed on religion when it comes to muslims despite the fact that many people committing these crimes are as secular as any islamophobe could hope that a muslim would be. Many massacres and genocides occurred in the past because of people deliberately misinforming and demonising others. Why would you perpetuate and repeat that dark period in human history by using the same sort of slur tactics that were used to justify brutally murdering people in the past?

Also who cares about the Muslim Brotherhood and how popular or unpopular they are. The Muslim brotherhood is not Islam they are a political party that have only gained prominence in one muslim country, Egypt, in the last few decades. They and their leaders do not summarise or represent 1400 years of Islamic history and development. Religious parties exist all over the world from the BJP Hindu fundamentalists in India to the Christian democratic parties in Europe. There isn't a global existential threat because of that.

excellent post peaceful. is the witchcraft thing in Africa partly to do with older religion mixed in with Christianity, the witch doctor in the village etc. not my version of Christianity.

it's the lack of live and let live that I find so shocking in Sudan. can't she make up her own mind. how does it affect anyone else. rhetorical questions.

I have an email with a link and hopefully will send a standard letter of protest to the president of Sudan condemning this.

Excellent post peaceful. I too am shocked at the everyday mainstream acceptance of Muslim bashing. Enough is enough and I'm glad that most of my RL friends are actually wisening up to right wing agendas which have created a bogeyman out of certain religions and cultures.

You could argue that alemci about the witchcraft in Africa and I am happy to accept that. I would argue the same thing about Boko Haram. They are not following an extremist form of Islam. They are following a totally aberrant, corrupted, mutant ideology that doesn't even resemble the religion of Islam. Where on earth in the Quran does it sanction or encourage muslims to go in to a mosque when muslims are praying and shoot at worshippers killing 44 people.

world.time.com/2013/08/13/nigerias-boko-haram-terrorist-group-launches-brazen-attack-challenges-obama/

Not just one incident. They apparently lured worshippers to a mosque giving the Islamic call to prayer and then gunned down 7 people mostly old men.

www.genocidewatch.org/images/Nigeria_2013-10-07_Extremists_gun_down_7_civilians_in_Nigerian_mosque.pdf

It would be really self defeating if the Quran taught that. Also where does the Quran tell muslims to kidnap other muslim's daughters. Many of the 200 girls kidnapped were also muslim. Also where does the Quran or hadiths call on muslims to kill innocent muslim boys as Boko Haram did when they attacked a boarding school killing 59 boys.

They have also slaughtered several Imams. Dont forget they are operating in the mainly muslim North so many of their victims are inevitably going to be muslims. They have slaughtered entire villages of muslims, in fact. Now dont get me wrong, the reason I am listing their crimes against muslims here is not because I think they are worse but to emphasis that this group has no respect for life whatsoever regardless of whether its muslims or non-muslims. Islamophobes can not claim that the origins of their beliefs are coming from Islam. These people are committing some of the worst sins in our religion.

Imams as well as ordinary muslims are being killed in Nigeria for opposing Boko Haram. Look at the demonstrations going on now and you will see that Muslims are also heavily represented there and are actually playing a pivotal role in the movement to get the Nigerian government to be more proactive in seeking the safe return of the girls. Ordinary Muslims all over the world speak out against this sort of inhuman violence again and again as well as religious leaders who have repudiated these radical groups.

theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/

If you choose to take the words and actions of uneducated Radical criminal groups as being more representative of a religion then, the words of grand muftis, reputable religious institutions and organisations, councils of scholars, learned muslim intellectuals, leaders of muslim countries and millions of muslims who speak out against and abhor these violent acts then to be honest that says more about you and your own inclinations and prejudices then it does about the religion of Islam.

This is my Islam:

Fantastic posts peacefuloptimist. All of it!!!!!

All the haters, get on your

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/10836250/British-born-Boko-Haram-ringleader-was-radicalised-at-UK-university.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/sudan/10837365/Islamic-court-permits-pregnant-woman-to-give-birth-before-she-is-hanged.html

This is my Islam you can't pick and choose you know. How on earth is one interpretation better than another?

There is nothing sadder than a woman defending Islam. This is where the horror of Stockholm syndrome shows itself most chillingly. Because the Koran is perfectly clear on these points.

Men are better than women:

“(Women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them.” Sura 2:228

Men can have many wives:

“Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four.” Sura 4:3

Women are worth half a man:

“To the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.” Sura 4:11

“Unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.” Sura 4:176

Women’s sexuality is wrong and needs to be suppressed:

“As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them.” Sura 4:15

Selling a wife is perfectly ok:

“And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another and ye have given unto one of them a sum of money (however great), take nothing from it.” Sura 40:20

It's utterly indefensible. All religions are driven by power,greed and social control but Islam is the one still perpetuating the inferiority of women and the brutality against non-believers.

This is how Islamophobia works. Subtly and successfully. They show negative things, no positive, so people will start questioning the faith and the people. They think that they are forming these opinions themselves, but really the media is tricking them.

Thanks Peaceful for your links and your points. I understand what you are saying. It is not unlike the tensions in the middle ages in Europe e.g. The Spanish Inquisition. Using christianity to achieve their ends.

I do worry about some aspects of Islam at times though because of things that go on in the UK like no go areas for non Muslims in the East End and thugs dictating to moderate Muslims.

Your comments about Hindus were interesting. I read a christian book "I dared to call him father" about a Hindu girl in India (this was 20 years' ago) who wanted to be a christian and how difficult it was for her.

ROFL at marcus selling a wife comment! You are coming across really stupid with loads of inaccuracies and then talk about why one interpretation is better than another! You have presented a classic example of not understanding the verse and applying your own interpretation and getting it so so wrong, scoring an own goal!

Agree with easy' this is exactly how misinformation/islamophobia is spread.

Who are you to tell a woman that they cant pick and choose. Or are you trying to save them from themselves? Do you have illusions of grandeur or feel you are superior to a muslim woman?

Why are you so afraid and fearful of muslims. Must be awful living a life so full of fear, where you cant express such opinions in RL and therefore must hide behind a computer to spout off your rubbish especially regarding selling a wife! (Still sniggering that you think that verse is an instruction to sell wives and then the you question why one interpretation is better than the other - oh the irony!)

By the way you referenced it wrong too and missed a bit off at the end. Talk about blatant misinformation! Must be awful living a life so full of hate.

Oh Marcus you are silly. The last point you make has nothing to do with selling a wife! It's about settlement on divorce and women keeping their dowry payment (which is paid to the wife in Islam, not the husband.

Marcus are you nick griffin?

very tricky, I can see both sides. It isn't clear cut.

My best friend is married to a Persian who is non religious. She thinks that country is the most enlightened. Neither of them have any time for Islam and she thinks it is repressive when it is used in government

I agree about the communist threat being replaced. I don't like the anti semitism though from some of the Moslems who are here. That should be challenged.

Enlightened people have been thinking about Islam for 1500 years.

This is how Islamophobia works. Subtly and successfully. They show negative things, no positive, so people will start questioning the faith and the people. They think that they are forming these opinions themselves, but really the media is tricking them.

This.

But also: all the Islamophobe has to do is to cut and paste a few out-of-context sentences from the Quran and make a few inflammatory claims -- it is left to the reasonable Muslims to parry those claims point by point, to fill in the context and clarify the true meaning of those quotations. The time and effort it takes is immense, and you have to do it again and again and again, because the Islamophobes never give up on their ignorance and bigotry.

I absolutely salute the patience and persistence of peacefuloptimist, crescentmoon and other Muslim posters who again and again counter hatred and prejudice with reason.

When was the last time that you heard of a terrorist attack on western land by Jewish people in the name if their religion?

And I'm far prettier and way better educated than Nick Griffin, whoever was asking that earlier.

But you're just as prejudiced.