genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

capsium how would you know you had done it just right so were going to heaven? You might have nearly got it right and still be working on it when the piano falls on your head (or whatever)

Back I have to have Faith.

I think people spend too much time thinking they disagree because they each have different words for the same thing.

So, let's see if I have this right, you believe that it requires accepting that the Christs sacrifice was made to redeem you, and allowing yourself to be redeemed (changed) in order to be rewarded with Heaven? Would it be completely unrealistic to see this as a sacrifice of your former self? Because I've known Christians who have framed it in those terms - and others who were not altogether willing to make the sacrifice, believing (erroneously, as I understand it) that they would be forgiven for it at the last minute.

Ninja I think people spend too much time thinking they disagree because they each have different words for the same thing.

Couldn't agree more.

And yes, I think you have understood me in terms of Redemption.

Caps i'm just trying to work out how your life would look different to say ninja's or mine. I reckon all 3 of us care for our families and friends, help others, pay bills and all the other things that Average Person does. I'm always a bit eyerolly that someone will say they go about doing gods will when we can see non-Christians going about doing the exact same stuff. It looks like gods will is 'making decisions' to me.

DrOwh If I wasn't a Christian I probably wouldn't have a conscience

What makes you think that? Do you think other people can manage it? What moral compass did you use to decide the gospel was good if you didn't have a conscience beforehand?

head developing my Faith and knowledge of Christian belief has been life changingly significant to me. It has given me Hope, whereas before I was a worrier and great strength to get through some difficult times in my life. With greater Faith i gained clarity. Although i appreciate looking from the outside I may seem confusing, but you should have seen me before! I am more relaxed generally and never bored. Before I really pursued my Faith I was beginning to feel a bit jaded. And I like people more, even through seeing more of their faults.

You might not notice all the changes, although if you you knew me very well, you would begin to notice them, I am sure.

kerala. I would same the same thing to you that I said to the the op.
Please report them.

People have noticed I get visibly uncomfortable when they start bitching about others and have commented. They laughed and rephrased what they said.

I used to be able to bitch for England and prided myself on being acerbic.

I no longer love shopping as much as I did...

Cap a lot of the good benefits you put down to your religion are the sorts of things that come with age anyway, a deeper appreciation of people, more patience with others as well as ourselves, more satisfaction with the simple things in life and so on.

From wiki: The experiments talk of how life satisfaction grows as people become older because they become wiser and more knowledgeable, so they begin to see that life will be better as they grow older and understand the important things in life more.[9]

"For Christ did not please himself; but, as it is written, "The insults of those who insult you, have fallen on me".
Romans 15.

Personally, I am not bothered whether, as a christian I am insulted on here or not. Perhaps I should be, I dont know.

I don't resent spending money or argue about it very much.

As I say lots of things have changed since I pursued my Christian beliefs more. Again no qualities an atheist or someone of different beliefs could not possess but aspects I experienced change in.

head that life experience for me included developing my Christian Faith. I can not turn the clock back and say I would have been the same without it and I still find it enriching. No regrets here.

I'm guessing you don't enjoy clubbing or getting horribly pissed anymore either?

No not really. Still like the odd bit of champagne and good food though. Clubbing became uncomfortable when I was engaged to be married and I was having to fend off some unwanted attention.

I do hih

I can be dreadfully embarrassing if I get drunk...cringe.

Hi mhd !

"the Bible accounts are just a valid as any other accounts"

...of genocidal deities.

Seriously though. So much here, and I have joined the thread a bit late...but to go back to the question from the OP, if that's OK?

I feel sad you've experienced this crap at the hands of these Christians. You know, I used to say all the 'they can't be real Christians' kind of stuff but I have actually been educated here that that is kind of a copout thing to say, and that actually Christians do vary in their actions. What I think I meant by that was that people who are not showing Christ like qualities in their actions, and in fact the opposite, are not displaying 'being Christians' in the truest sense of the word. However it may well be true that they have professed belief in Christ, but are simply not taking it further in terms of redemption/sanctification, or are in fact using the whole 'God forgives' thing as a copout, as you describe.

There is a passage from Romans that specifically warns against this. I'm not one to quote the bible on these threads but it's worth saying that actually, Christianity does not advocate this kind of getting away with it type of thinking. Paul says 'should I keep sinning then, so grace can increase? By no means! We have died to sin' - meaning that as part of our life in Christ we need to be daily making decisions that reflect our repentance.

I do think God will have something to say to people who act in such a way, and I also think that justice is hugely important in the life we have now. 'I believe in life before death' - truly.

Anyway, digressing from what this thread has become. As you were :)

Cobra you missed the 1st bit out. Rather importantly, I thought, I was saying this would be true from a humanist perspective the Bible is representative of humans, since they don't believe in deity. Deity is seen, by them, as a human construct. So the Bible, for humanists, should be seen as important in terms of what it tells you about the human psyche.

mhd couldn't agree more.

My home is a tip and this is one big messy thread I think in terms of digression...