genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

Op same position here. Totally screwed over by 2 devout Christians. One even said she would pray for us - when she had created the situation by her illegal and immoral actions!

head I believe things get intolerably nasty without the possibility of full Redemption. People are flawed, some seriously.

Dealing with the resulting chaos can be heartbreaking and brutal. If you read history and ideas of government, Machiavelli for example, ways preventing crime and maintaining order has always involved brutality.

I think God was as heartbroken as a modern reader at these events. Through the OT He prepared us for the coming of Christ the Saviour. In Faith I believe the timing was right, I am not sure human king could have received His message before.

In other blood thirsty religions we sacrifice to appease the god(s).
Or, we sacrifice in order to be given something in return. It would be selfish to ask to be rewarded without having done anything, no? The more something is worth to us, the more we should be willing to give in exchange. Some people would say up to, and including, our lives. (A sacrifice - of any sort - that is not willingly given is no sacrifice at all, incidentally...)

It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose, but aren't those who give their lives (more or less willingly) in the defence of their country said to have sacrificed themselves for the benefit of us all? I suspect that goes beyond being a figure of speech for a lot of people.

In other blood thirsty religions we sacrifice to appease the god(s)

As they had to under very close scrutiny in the OT. Why didn't god shout 'No, no. no, you're getting me all wrong, it's me that wants to be killed for you, stop sacrificing animals to me because you're making me look like the man made religions'

And even then why the sacrifice? Why is it even necessary?

head I believe things get intolerably nasty without the possibility of full Redemption. People are flawed, some seriously

Can you explain, I don't think I understand what you mean?

Ninja but in Christianity God blesses our Faith in what Christ has done with His Grace. Our sacrifice is that Faith, believing on Christ, which if we sincerely do, lets God work through us and we become more Christlike. So our resulting good works are by free choice, not for payment.

head people with criminal minds, psychopaths, NPD to name a few flaws existing amongst human kind. There is fall out.

Dealing with the resulting chaos can be heartbreaking and brutal. If you read history and ideas of government, Machiavelli for example, ways preventing crime and maintaining order has always involved brutality

but we are becoming much less barbaric. I think we have already covered the work of Steven Pinker and the fossil record showing we are much less likely to die at the hands of another human than at any other time in human history. I have every reason to think things will get better slowly for us as a species as we learn to reason and problem solve peacefully.

criminal minds, psychopaths, NPD to name a few flaws existing amongst human kind. There is fall out

sorry, what does the existence of such people tell you?

Why sacrifice?

Difficult question. There does seem to be something deep within human psyche that involves this act. In Pagan societies sacrifice is often central along with other blood rituals. Even in medicine we can treat others with blood products, so the donating and receiving of blood carries on.

But I cannot answer the question.

Our sacrifice is that Faith

Can you explain more what you mean by this? Can you give examples of how your faith has been a sacrifice?

I don't know Steven Pinker's work head so can not comment.

head how is Faith a sacrifice? It is and it isn't. I cannot say I am justified worrying and feeling sorry for myself for example. However removing worry and self pity is liberating.

capsium Do you feel a sense of satisfaction in your good works? Peace of mind that comes from your faith? Friendship and kindness in return? Because those seem like rewards to me.
What happens if you don't do it? If you call yourself a Christian while resisting God's will as you interpret it? Are you rewarded anyway?

Yes I feel Blessed and thankful to God. However I do not feel rewarded because I credit the works to God as it His Grace which enables me to do them.

Resisting God's Will makes me feel uncomfortable and restless.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

You can't deny that the ancients had a penchant for sacrifice, they had a penchant for quite a few barbaric things. I don't see how it being something we see in ancient history as giving any credibility to the existence of an' interested in humans' god though.

^ But I still feel blessed. I am glad I am sensitive enough to detect what is not a good idea.

capsium Not all Pagan sacrifices are or were blood sacrifices. In pre-Christian Northern Europe, specifically, sacrifice of material goods was widespread. That's what a lot of those 'Viking Hoards' that are found are. That's why Bronze and Iron Age weapons and jewelery are often found in rivers, bogs and lakes - because water was seen as a portal between worlds. Which is why we still throw pennies in wishing wells.
Fasting, or the offering of food, is also a sacrifice that well pre-dates Christianity. One which some Christian churches still employ regularly (think Lent.)

Caps can you think of times that you have resisted god's will? What was it you didn't do that you should have done?

Ninja yes I know.

head too personal to share.

Apparently we have a different definition of the word reward, capsium, because I would definitely classify feeling blessed as a reward for faith.
The big question, though, do you believe that a person calling themselves Christian will go to Heaven if they do not do the things you believe your faith calls you to do? Because I think that would be the big reward most Christians are hoping for.

You just seemed stuck on that one element, possibly for effect, and I wanted to point out to the kids following along at home that it was an oversimplification.

Belief on Christ is what is required of Christians to go to heaven Ninja. However this beliefs involves change, becoming a different person through God's Grace, not our own good works. The good works are like a bi-product of being changed by believing in Christ.

Rewarded? Hmm thinking about it maybe. Ambiguous word. I mean not rewarded in the sense that payment is a reward. Rewarded as in feeling blessed as the result of something good you wanted to do, yes.